Demo Limitations?

Nu Audio Science · 4 Jun 2005

I have to be honest and say i hope a lot is disabled, Outsim are a business and as such can't give away a near full version.

I also think that the price that is being asked for the early adopters only a child on pocket money would take a couple of months to save and purchase, Please dont think i am judging your individual case i am not but Outsim dont ask very much as it is.

My only income is from my business's and that isn't enough to live on so i have to get help from my government, My business's are still young so hopefully it will get better, That however did not stop me from getting SM.

Like i said i am not judging you personally but i wouldnt rely on a demo version for anything but learning 🙂

Rellik · 4 Jun 2005

Ok - I see what you mean - I agree that there should be SOME demo limitation, unless SM wants to just be freeware (which would be cool with me), but I don't agree that they should be especially crippling. Because I am never a fan of crippling demo limitations anyway - doesn't give you a good enough sense of the product to know whether it's worth it or not. And in the special case of SynthMaker, it really relies on the community to make high-level modules, so I don't think it would be entirely appropriate to cut off the demo users...

I just came up with an idea! Maybe the demo can just have the "Export as VST..." option disabled, since that's basically the most important function of the program :P then that will allow demo users to contribute modules and such without them being able to publish their own VST until they buy!

By the way, I appreciate you not judging my case personally - I'm nowhere near as bad off financially as you are (hope your businesses get up and running soon), but there is another factor involved... in fact there are two other factors involved! I'm just hoping I land some heavy-duty scholarships - then I'll buy SynthMaker for sure! I know it 'doesn't cost much', although I do consider the price a pretty substantial amount (but it's not an unreasonable price).

Acolmiztli · 4 Jun 2005

I'm a student living on a piss poor amount of loan. I can't manage to get a job because no-one will hire me for whatever reasons, I have rent due this month, I have a shit future ahead of me.

But hey... I managed to buy it 😉

Acolmiztli · 4 Jun 2005

Oh, and I'm not trying to belittle either of your situations in anyway. Just trying to say that if I can manage, then you'll do just fine.

Put a fiver away a week or something, use a jar.. before you know it you'll have the cash.

malc · 4 Jun 2005

Hi Rellik,

This is a very good question. It's something that Jorge and I have talked about and although we've not reached a final decision we are pretty much agreed on the general approach.

Basically we'd like the software demo to be as accessible as possible. I really like the idea of being able to try software out without excessive restrictions. I would consider even the disabling of the Export to VST option as restrictive. I think you need to be able to see what the software can do when evaluating it and assessing the export facility is a big part of that.

NAS is right we are a business and as such we need to think carefully about this. We want to encourage as many people to buy the software as possible in order to ensure continued development. I think there might be ways of doing this without restricting functionality. Look at how VSTi publishers use random noise or drop out in their demos. I would prefer to look at alternatives to restricted functionality as a means of dealing with evaluation and unlicenced usage.

Rellik · 5 Jun 2005

malc wrote: Hi Rellik,

This is a very good question. It's something that Jorge and I have talked about and although we've not reached a final decision we are pretty much agreed on the general approach.

Basically we'd like the software demo to be as accessible as possible. I really like the idea of being able to try software out without excessive restrictions. I would consider even the disabling of the Export to VST option as restrictive. I think you need to be able to see what the software can do when evaluating it and assessing the export facility is a big part of that.

NAS is right we are a business and as such we need to think carefully about this. We want to encourage as many people to buy the software as possible in order to ensure continued development. I think there might be ways of doing this without restricting functionality. Look at how VSTi publishers use random noise or drop out in their demos. I would prefer to look at alternatives to restricted functionality as a means of dealing with evaluation and unlicenced usage.

I had a feeling you and Jorge have been discussing this issue already - sounds like you're coming up to a good plan 🙂 random noise or drop out would work fine, in my opninion.

I fully intend on buying SynthMaker - it's a great app that has great capabilities 😀 and a great future, with a great community... it's great 😉. But until that will be possible, I'm glad that you and Jorge are putting a lot of good thought into making the demo non-debilitating without "giving it away".

Acolmiztli, that's a sad story 🙁 what are you studying? I'm sure things will turn up well eventually... that tends to happen if you keep at it long enough. Until then, hopefully things won't be too bad for you! A fiver a week is not a bad plan - it wouldn't exactly solve the problem I have, but I'm not going to bore you with my financial details, since it's not especially interesting or unique 😉. Before too long I will be able to buy SynthMaker, though, without too much trouble - 2007-early 2008 🙂

Acolmiztli · 5 Jun 2005

Rellik wrote: Acolmiztli, that's a sad story 🙁 what are you studying?

It's not that sad really. Mostly down to my laziness in the first semester about getting a job. I figured I'd just walk into something because I have enough valid experience.. but, not so it turns out. I'm studying for a BA in Sonic Arts at Middlesex University in London.

it wouldn't exactly solve the problem I have, but I'm not going to bore you with my financial details, since it's not especially interesting or unique 😉. Before too long I will be able to buy SynthMaker, though, without too much trouble - 2007-early 2008 🙂

I can sort of relate. My parents struggled financially all through my childhood. Hobbies were always encouraged though 🙂

DigitalShift · 5 Jun 2005

Hi Guys,

I personally really like the idea of a sound-drop-out without effecting the use of the software's full range of functionality. most if not all of the software I have purchased I have done so because they offered this type of "demo". Software (at least for me) that disallow me to SEE ALL the goodies unless i buy definitely affects my buying decission. This is why when I opened SM and got to see pretty much everything, I bought it within 2 hours of use...it just helps to be able to see everything that will satisfy the consumer.

ds

JMH · 5 Jun 2005

Personally, and in this case, I find the possible noise / sound dropout to be far more restrictive than say disabling VST export.

How could you realistically work on your own filter or effect design for example to evaluate the software, when you can't even hear it properly? 🙂 (and no, the opposite to this, "being able to see all features" doesn't really balance it out, I'm afraid) You try the app out, see the power it has, decide to try out a project to really see how the workflow feels for you, and pretty soon get annoyed by the constant dropouts or noise burts.

In my eyes not being able to test things later as an exported plugin sounds a lot more feasible restriction.

Too bad the discussion around this is for the registered users only. Doesn't of course stop us nonregistered ones from discussing the same stuff here 🙂 One thing I'd comment though, courtesy of inside sources 😉 is that the whole idea revolving around a possible runtime installation a la Pluggo... dear god no, please don't do that!

Regards,

JMH

malc · 5 Jun 2005

Hi JMH,

The sound drop out/random noise was just an example of how it's possible to find an alternative to functional restrictions when creating a demo version. I wasn't suggesting that we use this when I made my last post.

That said I've been thinking and it's worth considering if this idea could be incorporated into our demo restrictions in some way that would not be annoying. Perhaps we could allow VST export but the exported VST's would have the random noise. Inside SM though there would be no noise or drop outs. Just a thought.

There's no intention to have closed discussions on this, your opinions are very much welcomed, I hope you haven't felt left out 🙁. The thread you're refering to in the Early Adopters section wasn't started by myself or Jorge and originially began on one line of discussion and then evolved to include other issues.

Anyway, let me put you at ease and say that the runtime install is not going to happen. Neither will we be forcing exposure of schematics in generated VSTs. Don't worry 🙂

Nu Audio Science · 5 Jun 2005

Noise in exported plugs sounds like the perfect approach to me personally.

JMH · 5 Jun 2005

Malc all I can say that you guys continue to amaze me 🙂

The idea of the exported plugins having noise bursts or dropouts... that is the single most useful suggestion so far. You definitely have my vote there!

And it's good to hear that those other suggestions aren't going to happen 🙂 FWIW having the possibility to expose the schematics is a good idea, for people who'd like to have a look at them along with the plugin it's a real timesaver. So for me, options for "not available", "view only", "export .osm" sound good indeed.

You guys simply rock. As does SM. I'm starting to feel guilty already about not registering yet =)

Regards,

JMH

Nu Audio Science · 5 Jun 2005

Come on JMH we need some more nutcase Acid looniez in the Ea section 😉

JMH · 5 Jun 2005

Well... I could bore you to death with stories about my momentary situation, but nobody cares 😀

Going to be homeless in a month, haven't had a real job in two years (although this is partially voluntary - decided to stay home after years of slaving, developed a weird form of panic attack (this is actually funny, simultaneously stopped smoking weed and cigarettes and drinking coffee, the withdrawal symptoms developed into panic attack) and been using it as an excuse for not getting back into the wonderful world of work again...

But I'm happy nonetheless, just started a freelance job that includes dealing with 200 models + dancers, I get to do a lot of things I like doing (besides being a professional webmonkey I have a BFA, majored in photography and printmaking) and my temporary new home will be at one of the most interesting musicians I've ever heard (who I've learned to know recently)...

Only indirectly related to registering, I know :P As soon as I see some money from the new job - I still prefer getting paid although dealing with those girls is a huge reward in itself =)

Regards,

JMH

Tom7777 · 5 Jun 2005

I have to be honest and say i hope a lot is disabled, Outsim are a business and as such can't give away a near full version.

Same here NAS i hope they disable a load of stuff for the full version, I don't get hardly any cash yet i saved up and paid to become an early adopter. Don't just give the program away for free thats what was wrong with SE becuase it had hardly any restrictions and for all the leeches became a free cash making machine for selling bad plugins.

Noise in exported plugs sounds like a good idea i think also you should make it so theres a limit on the number of exported VST/VSTIs though.

Also another good idea is to set a limit on the amount of stuff a non registered user can add to there toolbox, and they get a message like "To add more modules please register SM" or something when they reach the max. Is this a good idea do you think?

JMH · 6 Jun 2005

NAS wrote: I have to be honest and say i hope a lot is disabled, Outsim are a business and as such can't give away a near full version.

Tom7777 wrote: Same here NAS i hope they disable a load of stuff for the full version, I don't get hardly any cash yet i saved up and paid to become an early adopter. Don't just give the program away for free thats what was wrong with SE becuase it had hardly any restrictions and for all the leeches became a free cash making machine for selling bad plugins.

I'm sorry to say it out loud, but that kind of sounds "I did things a certain way so everybody else should go the same route". While it makes a lot of sense not to give out everything for free and count on 'the kindness of strangers' to register, a seriously crippled demo version will not be that much of on incentive to get the full version. A lot of people want to know as much about the functionality and usability of an application before making a purchase.

I (being of a minority, I know) test everything thoroughly before I part with my money. Too many examples in the past about spur of the moment purchases, too many promising things I supported moneywise just to see that the app(s) got stuck in 'no progress' -state after money started flowing to the developer(s). That's why I don't even touch crippled demos anymore. If I'm really interested in an app or plugin, I'll go the extra mile and even hunt down a pirated version, because I want to know each and every possible feature and how it affects workflow before making my decision.

Tom7777 wrote: Noise in exported plugs sounds like a good idea i think also you should make it so theres a limit on the number of exported VST/VSTIs though.

This is a suggestion I can support. Limiting the VST/VSTi export is a sensible way to approach it, as it doesn't cripple studying the app itself and it limits the very function people otherwise could exploit to the extreme of earning money with it. But most importantly, because exporting plugins is a subset of SynthMaker functionality (I know, this sounds odd!) and "I like / have to see how the export works before I pay for it" seriously doesn't have that much weight - the plugins will work if you've done things right, as can be witnessed simply by browsing this forum, and it doesn't limit working in SM in any way, as there is no need to export your plugin and test it in a host to hear what it does... That in my eyes is the strongest point of SM, you're able to hear what happens while you're working with the schematic and code, something "proper" coding simply cannot achieve.

Tom7777 wrote: Also another good idea is to set a limit on the amount of stuff a non registered user can add to there toolbox, and they get a message like "To add more modules please register SM" or something when they reach the max. Is this a good idea do you think?

Agreed. Should have thought of this myself 🙂 This is an excellent way to do the demo version. Perhaps a limited amount of things in the toolbox (not too limited!), no possibility for grabbing the full version's toolbox contents and using them in the demo, and limited support for adding freely available components to the toolbox - either giving it a limit of say adding 20 items, or by adding a selection to the full version of SM where you can tick a selection box that says "can be imported/loaded with the free version" (which might of course clash with other peoples' views...)

Regards,

JMH

DigitalShift · 6 Jun 2005

JMH wrote: Malc all I can say that you guys continue to amaze me 🙂

The idea of the exported plugins having noise bursts or dropouts... that is the single most useful suggestion so far. You definitely have my vote there!

JMH

Thats exactly what I meant, I may not have explained well enough, but that was the idea.

ds

Tom7777 · 6 Jun 2005

Same here NAS i hope they disable a load of stuff for the full version, I don't get hardly any cash yet i saved up and paid to become an early adopter. Don't just give the program away for free thats what was wrong with SE becuase it had hardly any restrictions and for all the leeches became a free cash making machine for selling bad plugins.

JMH you are reading what i said in the wrong way, I didn't say disable all the stuff thats important to work in SM did i, theres a load of extra features in SM that would be good to remove from the demo feature, this would not effect a user from making a synth at all. What i mean is things like the

Remove Links option Limit to the amount of toolbox modules Limit a schematic to a certain amount of wires/modules Keyboard shortcuts Limit to the exported VSTI/VST and with noise bursts on every one Some Options in SM removed such as auto recovery Make SM always load with the startup example

And various other things, even without these a user could make and share a very good synth or effect and it would still work perfectly in SM only when exported there would be noise bursts. The list of restriction i think are good which i said is very reasonable IMHO and anyway when someone has a good working demo with these sort of restrictions it make it feel so much better when you buy becuase you have a list of extras you are getting with that. It would seem as if you are wanting too much for the free version, i don't know if you are a Early Adopter but from your post it sounds like you want the lot for free basically, sorry if im wrong but thats the way it seems.

At the moment Early Adopters get exactly the same as anyone that downloads the program for free anyway so the app basically has no restrictions at this time, I paid for SM becuase i wanted to help the devs but at the same time i saw that i would get a price reduction and becuase i though SM was amazing i became an Early Adopter for this reason because i don't get much money at all, less than a lot of people probably. If there is only a Noise burst on the exported VSTI i have to honestly say i will probably be regretful of spending that money as i have such a hard time coming across it and if its that 1 thing IMO would not really be much difference from the free version. I don't know about the other Early Adopters that don't get much money but im sure they would be thinking similar things to me.

Shifrin · 6 Jun 2005

This is a difficult thing to get right as you all know. Some people want full functionality with sound dropouts/noise (not extreme noise 😉 ). Others would prefer no dropouts/noise and instead have a reduced features. Or no dropouts/noise and full features minus VST export!!

I can see why some early adopters might not want to see an almost fully functional demo. I'm not fussed either way, I early adopted to support malc/jorge because their software is the best! How they choose to limit the demo version once 1.0 is out is up to them, and having seen how they handle things so far I'm sure they'll get it right 🙂

Shif.

Tom7777 · 6 Jun 2005

I early adopted to support malc/jorge because their software is the best! How they choose to limit the demo version once 1.0 is out is up to them, and having seen how they handle things so far I'm sure they'll get it right

Same here, my main point i guess though is that money is money and the demo should be reasonably different to the full version in terms of extras so there should at least a fair few restrictions. This is not a mean way of looking at it at all i think and there should be lots of restrictions made that don't effect the making of a synth.

If its just the exported vsti noise bursts added everyone interested in just making sounds for music will have hit the jackpot basically and its like walking into a castle and getting a free 7 course meal with wine and then getting a free car to drive away in.

malc · 6 Jun 2005

Don't worry Tom, the idea is not to give the software away for free. If we did that we'd be out of business.

I think that a combination of techniques will prove to be the best solution.

Tom7777 · 6 Jun 2005

Ok thanks Malc, I hope some of my ideas help in some way, i think the toolbox/schematic limit for modules is probably a very good one.

Nu Audio Science · 6 Jun 2005

JMH wrote: I did things a certain way so everybody else should go the same route JMH

JMH that is not what anybody was sayng or even thinking, I want Outsim to be a succesful business so that they can keep making updates like they are doing now pretty much for free, For anybody to think that was what i was saying surprises me to say the least. Infact i have stated before that i would like SM to be extremely expensive and i would be happy even to pay again to get V1, I doubt that is going to happen but i am happy to support in any way i can, I early adopted to support the devs and would be totally happy if they turned round and said "sorry guys but we are going to have to charge a little extra at V1" I am a small dev myself and know how hard it is to achieve great things without support which is exactly what Jorge and Malc are doing.

I couldn't care less if somebody gave them a million pound and said right release it for free, My motivation here is one thing, If the company is strong then so is the package, If the package is strong then so is my ability to build original useful software. the money that SM costs could be recouped by the crappest of plugins only getting a few sales, If this can be done with a demo version then what value Outsim. I know this may sound selfish but hey business is business, I have bought many many licences for SE in the past and will do the same with SM but that is because i fully intened to make my money back with commercial plugs, Sorry to get all Bill Gates here but that is my point of view, I need Outsim to be a succesful business end of story no pettiness at all.

JMH · 8 Jun 2005

NAS Well, my comment was more targeted at what Tom said, and I thought I made my opinion why it sounded like that rather clear.

I do agree with most of what you said and I do see your point. And I find it respectable that you pay extra licenses to support a product.

And like you said... it's business. My point with all my opinions comes from that, I'm suggesting things regarding the demo version I see as being supportive to the business. I have no agenda in this, such as hoping to get a free ride in this - SM is a tool and requires hard work before you get anything remotely usable done with it. If registering it helps, good. If one gets more features when one registers, that's ok. But if the demo version is too restricted... that's the situation I'm trying to address.

Let's see if I can address this further with some more quotes and replies to those...

DISCLAIMER: I don't put names on the quotes because I don't want this to look like I'm attacking anyone personally or targeting some individual. My point is to address certain opinions and views, separated from the people who said them in the first place. Apologies if this approach doesn't appear clear or if someone still feels that I'm pushing them too hard.

i hope they disable a load of stuff for the full version, I don't get hardly any cash yet i saved up and paid to become an early adopter. Don't just give the program away for free thats what was wrong with SE becuase it had hardly any restrictions and for all the leeches became a free cash making machine for selling bad plugins.

I disagree with the "load of stuff". The more restrictions, the less you are demoing the full application. As you can read from my posts, I'm not against restrictions, I'm against too much restrictions 🙂

I also disagree with the rest. Since it's already obvious that the demo version will not be fully functional. In other words... if you export VST/VSTi with the demo and those aren't usable, that makes it really hard to exploit SM without registering it, doesn't it? 🙂

I also wouldn't say that was wrong with SE - it was the exploiters that were wrong. I still think releasing SE the way it was done was great. Don't honestly know was it financially viable, I have my doubts about that.

A restricted but nearly fully functional demo is so much better than a crippled subset of the application. Especially if you were to limit basic application functionality... To put this another way, let's use a quote.

Remove Links option

agreed, don't know why though :P

Limit to the amount of toolbox modules

agreed, makes sense

Limit a schematic to a certain amount of wires/modules

where would you draw the line? I like seeing if I can finish a project in an application, so, if I can only get a quarter of it done in the demo... see what I mean? 🙂

Keyboard shortcuts

disagreed to the extreme. This is what I call crippling. If the demo says "in the registered version you'll have a lot of time-saving shortcuts", how would I know until I've paid to test them out? 🙂

Limit to the exported VSTI/VST and with noise bursts on every one

agreed, as I said before

Some Options in SM removed such as auto recovery

hmm... not really agreeing. "If I had a paid version, would it autorecover my work when it crashes?" 🙂

Make SM always load with the startup example

agreed, if you can get rid of this in the full version... almost worth registering for me right now 😀

Ok, then this bit:

It would seem as if you are wanting too much for the free version, i don't know if you are a Early Adopter but from your post it sounds like you want the lot for free basically, sorry if im wrong but thats the way it seems.

That's almost insulting. And therefore I understand your reaction to my posting. But consider this: everything I've said comes purely from considering what would be good for SM, as in marketing a product with a good demo version. Nothing of it comes from "I want it all for free". I've already stated I haven't registered yet, that should be clear. I've also stated I love SM betas because they give me full access to the app, and not just a feature here and there. I've also said that I will register. Which almost goes against my nature, as it is a tool that doesn't directly provide me anything - it just allows me to do something I couldn't do within a coding environment. No matter if I ever release anything to the public, for me it's important and most of all FUN that there is a tool that allows me to try out ideas and POSSIBLY come up with something useful in the process.

So yes, you are VERY wrong. Even more wrong than I was when I wrote that bit about "everybody else going the way you did because you did". Except mine wasn't as insulting. :P

But please, don't take me the wrong way. I'm only addressing certain points raised, I have nothing against you, why would I? 🙂 I know my style here might get a little too BONESy, and I apologize if I come across as if I had something against any of you people.

Why I said anything at all in the first place... Just because some people have paid the Early Adopter's price, doesn't make them any more knowledgeable in what constitutes a good demo version. And that such discussions are taking place behind the scenes (registered user parts of the forum)... results in opinions such as stated here: "protect MY investment because I PAID for it" - which as you should know by now, isn't the way to approach the possible reduced featureset of a demo version.

I can see why some early adopters might not want to see an almost fully functional demo.

I see why, I just strongly disagree if I don't see validity in it, other than "I paid, so should you".

I'm not fussed either way, I early adopted to support malc/jorge because their software is the best!

You can only trust me in this one... I would have paid already if my finances weren't what they are. But I strongly emphasize the point that my opinions and views on the demo version do not come from "gimme everything for free" - if I wanted things that way, I'd just wait for the 1.0 getting warezed. Instead I'm waiting for the possibility to support Malc/Jorge financially since SM is the best tool I've come across in years. I talk about it all the time to non-muso coders just to hear their opinion on such a novel approach to producing code.

I also don't generally support products monetarily no matter how great the people behind it are. Did that in the past, only got as much as apps that didn't get developed further, instead bigger versions appeared, more money was asked and my original investment went practically to waste.

For ME, it's extremely important to know as much about an app as possible before purchasing it. I know, "I will buy it" sounds like an empty promise. But equally as empty as "the registered version will do this and that so much better".

How they choose to limit the demo version once 1.0 is out is up to them, and having seen how they handle things so far I'm sure they'll get it right

Yep, I'm counting on that too. SM is worth the success. It is literally revolutionary - and anyone not realizing that is a tool 😀

If there is only a Noise burst on the exported VSTI i have to honestly say i will probably be regretful of spending that money as i have such a hard time coming across it and if its that 1 thing IMO would not really be much difference from the free version. I don't know about the other Early Adopters that don't get much money but im sure they would be thinking similar things to me.

Why would if devalue your work or your investment? Demo users couldn't still sell their creations, they couldn't even use them themselves - unless they're into IDM 😉 Furthermore, what's beeing suggested isn't - or wasn't - that noise bursts in the exported plugins are the only difference.

As for other early adopters, I'd love to hear their opinions. Especially if they can provide opinions free of "I paid, so should you" stance.

Once more. Please, pretty please try to read this without thinking I'm attacking anyone. Meanwhile, I'll get a cup of coffee and a cigarette and then come back and notice how many times I've lost the plot in this megapost.

NAS, Shifrin, Tom, I sincerely mean no harm to you guys 🙂

Malc, Jorge, I hope this doesn't feel like crossing the line on your forum. I've already expressed my feelings on SM and on your work and attitude - 10 out of 10.

Regards,

JMH

malc · 8 Jun 2005

Hi JMH,

No problem at all. Personally I think it's great that you and others are talking so passionately about the software. What would concern me is if nobody gave a monkeys what we did 🙂

I think you have some valid points about what should be restricted. I certainly wouldn't cut out usability features as this seems totally counterproductive.

Thanks

Shifrin · 8 Jun 2005

No offence taken JMH 🙂

An interesting read, debate is a good thing!

Shif.

Rellik · 8 Jun 2005

Yeah, JMH, you're very good at getting your point across!

I have to admit that I'm the one who is wanting everything for free (so to speak). The main reason I ask about demo limitations is because I want to know whether I'll be able to work seriously with SM between now and when I can purchase it. I've already been using SM uninhibited, so I don't really need the demo for try-it-before-buying purposes - and I'm not a businessman, so I don't really have an opinion on what demo limitations would be the best for the developers economically.

I just love SM 🙂 to the point of even being willing to buy it (and I don't buy much) when it wouldn't be financially/morally irresponsible for me to do so. Not only is it fun to work with, but it's going to be REALLY SUPER AWESOME when VST export gets up and running nicely - it'll change the face of software synthesis to 10x the extent that SynthEdit ever did (specifically because of SM's efficiency and its unique capability to bring the low level functionality right to the user, encouraging less standardized algorithms!)

Nu Audio Science · 8 Jun 2005

Well i made my point i dont care who pays what for what as long as Malc and Jorge can afford to carry on 🙂

Tom7777 · 9 Jun 2005

DISCLAIMER: I don't put names on the quotes because I don't want this to look like I'm attacking anyone personally or targeting some individual. My point is to address certain opinions and views, separated from the people who said them in the first place. Apologies if this approach doesn't appear clear or if someone still feels that I'm pushing them too hard.

So yes, you are VERY wrong. Even more wrong than I was when I wrote that bit about "everybody else going the way you did because you did". Except mine wasn't as insulting. :P

I don't think what i wrote was insulting, the only part that could have seemed that way was when i said you must want everything for free and the huge post you made mainly directed at me basically backs that point up more as you seem to think that restriction in a demo are a bad thing some how.

In other words... if you export VST/VSTi with the demo and those aren't usable, that makes it really hard to exploit SM without registering it, doesn't it? 🙂

Not quite sure if you know about apps that can record audio, but basically there programs which allow you to record sounds 😉 synthmaker makes sounds 🙂 not everyone wants modular software to make plugins 🙂

1. agreed, don't know why though :P

2. where would you draw the line? I like seeing if I can finish a project in an application, so, if I can only get a quarter of it done in the demo... see what I mean? 🙂

3. disagreed to the extreme. This is what I call crippling. If the demo says "in the registered version you'll have a lot of time-saving shortcuts", how would I know until I've paid to test them out?

4. hmm... not really agreeing. "If I had a paid version, would it autorecover my work when it crashes?" 🙂

1.By this i mean being able to curve/bend links/wires, this is not really an important feature in terms of being able to create a synth, reaktor and SE don't use them so it seems like a reasonable suggestion IMHO

2. Well a limit to the amount of wires allowed is also very reasonable and a lot would be allowed anyway i would say a max of 1000 or something.

3. Well most people would know that it would save time if they saw some text on a list saying Automatic linking, keyboard shortcuts anyway. Anyone thats every used the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V commands will know what the function does automatically without testing anything.

4. Well im too sure but aren't demo and full version two different things?

But please, don't take me the wrong way. I'm only addressing certain points raised, I have nothing against you, why would I? 🙂 I know my style here might get a little too BONESy, and I apologize if I come across as if I had something against any of you people.

Please don't take me the wrong way and i don't have anything against you either, but if you don't want want such direct replys, don't make them to begin with, if you quote everything i say basically telling me im wrong for everything i will do the same back to you 🙂 sure you have valid points for some things but then again so do i and that was just my opinion which everyone is free to use, a much nicer way to do things is say something like sorry tom7777 but i don't agree with that or something similar.

I see why, I just strongly disagree if I don't see validity in it, other than "I paid, so should you".

Thats a bit how i feel i guess as i don't get much money but as NAS says Outsim are a buisness and will need to make money, SE which only has one or too small restrictions has a load of users ond most of them have not paid to get the full version becuase of this, and basically restrictions should always be made for demo software anyway, none of my suggestions would actually effect the development of a synth and what i would call extras, apart from the wires/modules limit i guess but that was to stop huge synths from being made with the demo. If a user was making a massive project and hit the limit (which would be high) they would surely have some form of interest in purchasing the full version anyways and might be the step needed for them to purchase the software.

For ME, it's extremely important to know as much about an app as possible before purchasing it. I know, "I will buy it" sounds like an empty promise. But equally as empty as "the registered version will do this and that so much better".

Again none of the things i said about would effect the sound output would they so if they were added a user would be able to test as much as they wanted.

Why would if devalue your work or your investment? Demo users couldn't still sell their creations, they couldn't even use them themselves - unless they're into IDM Wink Furthermore, what's beeing suggested isn't - or wasn't - that noise bursts in the exported plugins are the only difference.

Well basically they would get everything and just not be able to export synths or effects, a lot of people will be using SM for music based tasks and not just to export plugins, i have already recorded a load of samples that i have made using SM and demo users should be able to as well but if theres just this one restriction it would be like everything for free for anyone just interested in samples and making music.

Once more. Please, pretty please try to read this without thinking I'm attacking anyone. Meanwhile, I'll get a cup of coffee and a cigarette and then come back and notice how many times I've lost the plot in this megapost.

Same here this is not an attack just a reply to you, if you don't want such direct ones in the future don't do them to begin with, its that simple. I have no bad feelings towards you at all i just don't agree with what you are saying to me and we should both be able to express our opinions.

Malc, Jorge, I hope this doesn't feel like crossing the line on your forum. I've already expressed my feelings on SM and on your work and attitude - 10 out of 10.

Same here, when i get such a direct reply from someone for one of my posts i will make one back to them though. So i hope everythings cool 🙂

unkargherth · 9 Jun 2005

Well. i see a lot of amssl diferences here.and i try to add my two cents

Demo Limitation comes from some evident sources and some not so evident

.- Outsim has to make money. pretty obvious, so they need to leverage what is free and and what is pay from bussine sPOV

.- Users who didn't pay has to be able to test extensively the product ( and this includes, documentation and comunity support too), BUT they shouldn't be able to Build anything "Commercial Grade", nor produce any marketable sound. Also for obvious reasons (at least for outsim)

.- Users who payed want to protect in some way his inversion. Not in the line "I payed, so you must pay", but more on the line "I payed, so i get something extra that you nnot" ( i know it sounds childish, it's only a wasy to explain it)

.-And for the Last Whole comunity ( at least more or less serious users) want to protect the product of beign damned with the so called "SE Effect", ie, to easy to exploit them for free, generating a market flooding, which, in most cases, lendsto product prestige loss. I'm not telling that this is always the case, and i don't know why, but, it happens

So, any demo limitations that fullfills the previous statements carefully will be ok.

Anyway. nobody told before. but, another way to promote SM will be to build two or three simple, but carefully crafted VST's, and give it for free to everybody. This allows to test extensively "Product results" without compromissing teh above mentioned issues

Tom7777 · 9 Jun 2005

Anyway. nobody told before. but, another way to promote SM will be to build two or three simple, but carefully crafted VST's, and give it for free to everybody. This allows to test extensively "Product results" without compromissing teh above mentioned issues

Good idea, and the registered users should get to use the .osm files 🙂

My basic point before was that registered users should get that bit extra than demo users. i also im very glad i am a registered user and want to help SM out and others should do too, but IMHO if i had not been using SM as long as i had and there was no forum and i just found the website and saw some text saying only noise bursts in exported vsti/vst are the extra for the full version i doubt i would even have thought about purchasing even if i like the software because i don't often get money but also im interested in making synths just to play and SM lets you do that within the actual program and its very easy to record the audio, Im more of a sample based music maker (all my own samples) and a lot of others are too, this was another point i was trying to get across and i know for a fact that there will be a load of people that don't check the forum and just grab the program use it as often as they like doing this and won't buy the software.

I myself plan on purchasing every new version released from now on and i have already started saving for this and will be happy to let Jorge and Malc have my hard earned money as long as they keep releasing SM 🙂

JMH · 9 Jun 2005

Heya people. It worked, coaxing answers and comments is something I usually aim for and looks like I got some.

And I'm glad to see no-one was offended 🙂

Tom7777 wrote: I don't think what i wrote was insulting, the only part that could have seemed that way was when i said you must want everything for free and the huge post you made mainly directed at me basically backs that point up more as you seem to think that restriction in a demo are a bad thing some how.

Yes. The hint that I'm after "everything for free" was somewhat insulting, as I've been trying to back up my opinions. Not insulting in the sense that you called me names or don't like my body odor, but nevertheless hinting that I want something for free Early Adopters have already paid for. No biggie.

And no... I don't think restrictions in a demo are a bad thing, didn't I say that out loud several times? 🙂 Would I be suggesting them myself if I was against them? :P

Not quite sure if you know about apps that can record audio, but basically there programs which allow you to record sounds 😉 synthmaker makes sounds 🙂 not everyone wants modular software to make plugins 🙂

Touché, mate 😀 I hadn't really thought about this, people using SM standalone... I guess my limited view in this matter came from seeing SM as THE tool for doing plugins.

1.agreed, don't know why though :P

1.By this i mean being able to curve/bend links/wires, this is not really an important feature in terms of being able to create a synth, reaktor and SE don't use them so it seems like a reasonable suggestion IMHO

Ahh.. point taken. And agreed.

2. where would you draw the line? I like seeing if I can finish a project in an application, so, if I can only get a quarter of it done in the demo... see what I mean? 🙂

2. Well a limit to the amount of wires allowed is also very reasonable and a lot would be allowed anyway i would say a max of 1000 or something.

Ok, I can agree with this one as well.

3. disagreed to the extreme. This is what I call crippling. If the demo says "in the registered version you'll have a lot of time-saving shortcuts", how would I know until I've paid to test them out?

3. Well most people would know that it would save time if they saw some text on a list saying Automatic linking, keyboard shortcuts anyway. Anyone thats every used the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V commands will know what the function does automatically without testing anything.

But I still disagree. It's mainly a workflow thing. I guess that if SM had user configurable shortcuts, omitting those from the demo version would be understandable. And I assume there's a shortcut or two in SM right now that could be left out from the demo version, although I can't instantly come up with one...

But consider this: "in the registered version you'll be able to navigate between different levels of your schematics with pageup and pagedown". Now that would be a serious workflow issue which really you wouldn't see until you paid - and what if it didn't cut the mustard?

Remember, this is an isolated example of a single feature. And then, apply this to a number of suggested restrictions.

4. hmm... not really agreeing. "If I had a paid version, would it autorecover my work when it crashes?" 🙂

4. Well im too sure but aren't demo and full version two different things?

That's not even a real response. "The registered version will autorecover and autosave your work, so you'll never lose your work!" And you have NO CHANCE on seeing this feature work until you register. And if it doesn't really deliver then? I've used a number of apps, ranging from 2D and 3D graphic apps to CMSes that have autosaving and recovery features, and none of them really performed it well.

One app even advertises this. I was glad to see it appear, only to find out that later on it disappeared although it was still in the documentation. Now it popped up again - and no comments were as to why this feature popped in and out randomly. From my experience with this app, its autosave doesn't even do what they tell you it should be doing! At some point, it was supposed to save an earlier version when the user saves a new version, at some point it was supposed to do something akin to regular autosave (backup your work at some intervals), at some point it was supposed to save what you're working on in a way that made no sense to me (what's the point in making a backup of your work when you save your work?)...

This is what I mean... features some might consider essential or important should be evaluatable.

That's another example of a single feature, remember. What I am trying to get across is that "available in the registered version only" is always a leap of faith. The bigger the price, the more faith is necessary. Other peoples' opinions on workflow and such only go so far - I have to admit I've been suckered into an app or two in the past simply because of the appraisal coming from so many people, only to find out that a lot of these "it's better in the registered version" features weren't all that - and I really had no chance of seeing them in use before paying for it.

But please, don't take me the wrong way. I'm only addressing certain points raised, I have nothing against you, why would I? 🙂 I know my style here might get a little too BONESy, and I apologize if I come across as if I had something against any of you people.

Please don't take me the wrong way and i don't have anything against you either, but if you don't want want such direct replys, don't make them to begin with, if you quote everything i say basically telling me im wrong for everything i will do the same back to you 🙂 sure you have valid points for some things but then again so do i and that was just my opinion which everyone is free to use, a much nicer way to do things is say something like sorry tom7777 but i don't agree with that or something similar.

I think we're in full understanding about this 🙂 The reason I did the whole quoting thing, I tried explaining... at least some of the opinions you stated were something I've seen expressed by others. Hence I thought it would be better to address those opinions instead of addressing you directly with each and every quote from your texts. Like I said, I'm not trying to perform character assassination, I'm just trying to address some points and opinions.

And it's cool that you're cool about it too 🙂

For ME, it's extremely important to know as much about an app as possible before purchasing it. I know, "I will buy it" sounds like an empty promise. But equally as empty as "the registered version will do this and that so much better".

Again none of the things i said about would effect the sound output would they so if they were added a user would be able to test as much as they wanted.

Well, keyboard shortcuts and auto recovery would. Both affect the instant appeal of the app, and therefore should be features available in the demo version. That workflow I keep on going about... with all shortcuts available, it's easy to evaluate how fast, efficient, easy and fun it is to build something in SM. For the other suggestion, read my agree -comments above 🙂

Why would if devalue your work or your investment? Demo users couldn't still sell their creations, they couldn't even use them themselves - unless they're into IDM Wink Furthermore, what's beeing suggested isn't - or wasn't - that noise bursts in the exported plugins are the only difference.

Well basically they would get everything and just not be able to export synths or effects, a lot of people will be using SM for music based tasks and not just to export plugins, i have already recorded a load of samples that i have made using SM and demo users should be able to as well but if theres just this one restriction it would be like everything for free for anyone just interested in samples and making music.

Now I see your point. And I do agree, naturally demo users aren't supposed to get "everything for free". But... like I said in the part you quoted, having restrictions only in the exported plugins isn't suggested as the only difference 🙂

Once more. Please, pretty please try to read this without thinking I'm attacking anyone. Meanwhile, I'll get a cup of coffee and a cigarette and then come back and notice how many times I've lost the plot in this megapost.

Same here this is not an attack just a reply to you, if you don't want such direct ones in the future don't do them to begin with, its that simple. I have no bad feelings towards you at all i just don't agree with what you are saying to me and we should both be able to express our opinions.

Of course. That should go without saying. And I for one am actually enjoying this, this is what I call conversation 🙂 Not just spouting out comments and remarks but actually reading and thinking what the other one is saying and replying to that.

And no, I don't mind direct replies, isn't that obvious?-) I just wanted to make sure I'm not offending you or anyone else with my... 'style'.

Malc, Jorge, I hope this doesn't feel like crossing the line on your forum. I've already expressed my feelings on SM and on your work and attitude - 10 out of 10.

Same here, when i get such a direct reply from someone for one of my posts i will make one back to them though. So i hope everythings cool 🙂

Everything's cool - too bad we don't have that hugging smiley here that's available on KVR 😀

And onwards to quotes from some other people then...

- Users who payed want to protect in some way his inversion. Not in the line "I payed, so you must pay", but more on the line "I payed, so i get something extra that you nnot" ( i know it sounds childish, it's only a wasy to explain it)

But isn't that kind of obvious already? The registered version will do more, have more. My somewhat extreme remark "I paid, so should you" just came from reading some opinions from Early Adopters that had no validity in them - in other words, no other explanation to the opinion/comment than "I've paid for this feature, so should everybody else" which is kind of irrelevant really when we're discussing demo features.

From now on, let's all take it for granted that a demo version is limited featurewise to the full version 🙂

Ok, running on empty so time for some breakfast - that'll be coffee and cigarettes 😉

And I promise I'll make shorter posts in the future =)

Regards,

JMH

Tom7777 · 9 Jun 2005

Yeah i see what you mean about the shortcuts and auto save now, and i guess a user would have to test them out to know how well they worked 🙂

And no, I don't mind direct replies, isn't that obvious?-) I just wanted to make sure I'm not offending you or anyone else with my... 'style'.

Don't worry im not offended in any way, It's all good 🙂

And I promise I'll make shorter posts in the future =)

Cool, I can't type very fast 🙂

Im sure Malc and Jorge will get the demo version right, all of my stuff was just suggestions so at the end of the day im only saying a few ideas and they might not be added. They were all basically non audio effecting things but i guess that im wrong about the shortcuts and auto save. 🙂

Nu Audio Science · 9 Jun 2005

Guys keep it rolling because between the two of you your actually discussing virtually every avenue, I'm sure this is reallyeally useful info to J+M.

OT This place is cool, Imagine what this post would have become at KVR 🙂

Shifrin · 9 Jun 2005

Nu Audio Science wrote: OT This place is cool, Imagine what this post would have become at KVR 🙂

OT - I'd hate to think what this thread would have been like on KvR!

Shif.

JMH · 9 Jun 2005

Amen. I seriously don't know why I'm posting on KVR anymore. One developer I like and have supported keeps on attacking or ignoring me (the recent thread about "filter tastes"), every thread I participate in where I can help turns into theoretisizing about something irrelevant (the KVR radio thread), if I start discussing anything I know by trade (such as the various GUI threads) I just get slapped by developers and/or 3rd parties who don't possess any knowledge in the subject... etc.

I would have loved to participate better in that "if you're still not convinced by SynthMaker" thread but it turned into... yet another KVR thread 😀

Not that I don't like reading KVR soap operas, hell, I've been involved in a few just for the kicks =)

Meanwhile in here, our posts might actually accomplish something 🙂

Regards,

JMH

And now for real, checking out that 'pan law' implementation Unka did 😀

Tom7777 · 9 Jun 2005

I don't really use KVR anymore, just check through every few months to see if theres anything amazing i have missed, but there isn't most of the time. 🙂