VISTA Glitches

theun · 31 Mar 2009

Hi rl,

your 2nd and 3rd bullit seem to be related to administrative rights indeed. I am running SM for about one and a half years on vista now. Vista has been a pain in the *** every now and then that's for sure. But SM runs smoothly on it here. Before rel 1.1.1 you had to run SM as admin as a workaround, but starting from 1.1.1 that is not necessary anymore, see release notes.

Release 1.1.1 (blurb) Additions and Fixes * ... * (more blurbs) * .... * Admin privileges are now automatically requested on Vista machines

(And to be sure I checked, i'm using 1.1.3 beta 3, and not running as administrator) So it should be possible to run SM on vista without the flaws you describe under bullit 2 and 3 ...

Vista is very rigorous (UAC) on which user is allowed to do what. Possibly you may have installed SM using a different account ? Life becomes easier when you install it using the same account as the account with you are going to work with it.

I hope this helps.

Cheers!

rl · 31 Mar 2009

Thanks for the answer Theun, but no - what I did was: - Download - Install - Run (using the same account, which btw. is just a member of the group users) - Retest using administrator account

So I'm considering this as a bug (unless I have a unusual vista config)

theun · 31 Mar 2009

I still think the behavior you mentioned seems to be caused by vista UAC in the 1st place ...

You may check the rights that the different categories of accounts (system/admin/user) have, by rightclicking the SM icon or the SM .exe file itself and select "properties". Under the 3rd or 4th tab (probably labeled "security" or something like that) in the window that should open those rights are listed, as shown here:

Using the buttons in this screen you may also enter a menu enabling you to change these rights.

Cheers again!

rl · 31 Mar 2009

Thanks for the efforts Theun. I appreciate that. I'm working in SW development, so I know these dialogs very well 🙂

BTW: my setting look identically to yours, with the little exception I'm reading the german term "Benutzer" instead of the dutch "Gebruikers".

So: nuisance still not solved. I assume Synthmaker.exe has a manifest that enforcers privilege elevation. BTW: I don't understand why SM would need enhanced privileges. Isn't it just an editor for OSM files with a little midi/audio in/out? 🙂

theun · 1 Apr 2009

rl wrote: I'm working in SW development, so I know these dialogs very well 🙂

Sorry for boring you with the obvious 😉 . I just can't stand it when I can't get my head around things like this ...

rl wrote: BTW: I don't understand why SM would need enhanced privileges. Isn't it just an editor for OSM files with a little midi/audio in/out? 🙂

Essentially yes. However e.g. the directory where it has to write (e.g. an exe or (vst) dll) could be (again: e.g.) in a user directory. And other users do not have (default) writing rights. Just thinking loud ...

Cheers!

rl · 1 Apr 2009

BTW: today I discovered that in Windows Explorer the icon of synthmaker.exe is marked with a little shield icon. That looks like the described behaviour is by design. Question to Theun and other VISTA users? Do you also see this?

theun · 1 Apr 2009

rl wrote: .... in Windows Explorer the icon of synthmaker.exe is marked with a little shield icon

Do you mean the small arrow at the left like here:

This indicates the file in question is a link. I vaguely remember having read something long ago about how to get rid of this, but I can't immediately reproduce that now.

Cheers!

rl · 2 Apr 2009

No, I mean this:

the "shield" in the lower right corner indicates that Synthmaker.exe needs elevated privileges.

Any official statement from the synthmaker team? Malc?

nix · 2 Apr 2009

Nope, my SM doesn't have that icon in Vista Home Premium. I have turned that up though installing something else. I haven't had any of the glitches you describe with Vista. Not much help, sorry.

Andrew J · 2 Apr 2009

rl wrote: No, I mean this:

the "shield" in the lower right corner indicates that Synthmaker.exe needs elevated privileges.

Any official statement from the synthmaker team? Malc?

Rudolf, is your PC logged into a domain? If so, their might be some policy setting that others on the forum don't get on their home machines.

sunsynth · 2 Apr 2009

Hallo Rudolf,

bei mir läuft Vista Home premium SP1: Beta 3 = No Problems! Also drag and drop works...

But i killed wins securitycenter before already - instead i use Comodo! I never liked M$ bad security progs and always want more User control...!

rl · 2 Apr 2009

Thanks for your replies guys.

The deeper I dig into this the more I believe this is a SM problem:

I installed the Orion sequencer on the same machine and it just works. In contrary SM demands Adminstrator rights. I'm just working as an ordinary user (Member of Group Users and Remote Desktop Users, no group policies, no domain membership). Are you all running your system as Administrator or with bypassing UAC?

nix · 3 Apr 2009

Yep, I'm definitely running as administrator. I did all I could to disable UAC prior to my current install for some reason, but I don't think I have changed anything this time 'round.

theun · 3 Apr 2009

rl wrote: Are you all running your system as Administrator or with bypassing UAC?

No. I can run SM without problems from a user account.

Cheers

longhair_kev · 24 Aug 2009

Ok well I've just started using SynthMaker (I'm very impressed too).

But I have encountered the same issue as "rl", in that whenever I run Synthmaker the Vista UAC jumps up and demands authorization - which means that the program insists that it runs as an administrator with elevated privileges.

Likewise as with "rl", the executable icon on my machine is marked with the windows shield - indicating that the executable can ONLY run with elevated privileges.

Has anyone discovered whether or not this nuisance has been fixed? Its a shame that such a good product is marred by this irritation. I don't fancy shelling out money for it because of this actually, so at the end of my trial period I'll probably go back to SynthMaker or something similar. If there is a fix though, even if its only in the pipeline at the moment, then I'll invest!

I'm running Vista Ultimate btw. I won't be disabling UAC either, so I won't be interested in workarounds which allow the program to run without the UAC prompt but still with elevated privileges. After all, it shouldn't be doing anything which requires elevated privileges should it!!! (yeh well the software stuff I understand having been in IT support for nearly 30 years...).

Thanks all in advance..

Kev.

theun · 24 Aug 2009

Hi longhair_kev,

welcome to the SM forum!

As far as I know this problem does not occur for home or home premium vista users. On my machine (home premium installed) UAC doesn't give any problems when working with SM, as I already wrote earlier in this topic.

However the problems you mention seem to occur when using vista ultimate (and afaik business), as ultimate's UAC system is more sophisticate: the secpol.msc file that sets Local Policies / Security Options is not available on home (premium) systems.

I am afraid this doesn't help you much further, but at least it seems to explain why some users do experience UAC problems, vs others that don't.

Best regards, Theun

longhair_kev · 25 Aug 2009

Thanks theun, after reading the earlier posts I had suspected that the problem only shows on Vista Ultimate.

I suppose it will be fixed eventually.

Kev.

theun · 25 Aug 2009

longhair_kev wrote: I suppose it will be fixed eventually.

I pm'd malc about your post. He's a great dev but he has to spread his attention to too many subjects as SM has become more and more a one man band. I hope this issue will get his attention soon, however I'm afraid he went off for the holidays after finishing RC1 for 1.1.3 ....

Cheers, Theun

AngularMomentum · 25 Aug 2009

- If SM was maximized the next time it starts it is in full screen size (but not maximized). In this case SM's window is some pixel bigger than the screen size. (Visible when using multiple screen setups)

Also in earlier version with Windows XP. SM is always overlapping a few pixels to the next monitor.

rl · 25 Aug 2009

I think that's because Aero's windows frame is a little bigger than on XP.

BTW: I'm using VISTA business. I accustomed myself to that "Enter Admin password" nuisance now 🙁

malc · 1 Sept 2009

Bit late to the party here - sorry.

It seems that we may have gone for a catch all solution in the early days of Vista and never revisited it.

It's bad enough having to go through the "Allow" process each time but I didn't realise that some people may have to put a password in each time!

Having looked at it again, the only reason we need elevated privileges is for writing to Program Files. This happens only in two situations:

1. Exporting Plugins - the default location is C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VstPlugins. This always used to be the standard location, not sure if that is still the case though.

2. Saving Modules - modules dragged to the toolbox are saved as .hom files in the install folder.

Both of these issues could be resolved by moving user data to user folders and not allowing write access to Program Files at all thus removing the need for any UAC shenanigans whatsoever.

At worst we could allow writing of plugins to the standard C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VstPlugins folder and only ask for approval when you export. That said, it may be possible to still do this but not require the prompt for permission. I seem to recall Vista does some jiggerypokery to give the appearance of writing to protected folders - something about "compatibility files"?

Look at that now, you don't get many posts that use 'shenanigans' and 'jiggerypokery' at the same time! 🙂

aliasant · 1 Sept 2009

Hmm. I use Win7 and my guess is that most of us will do the same in a year or less so maybe investigate how it works in Win7 is important?

I walked around the problem by simply open up my ControlPanel/User Accounts, then click " Change User Accounts Settings" and drag that slider to the bottom fully turning of that extreme nooby UAC. At least that is what I think I did? Tried turning it back on and no change but probably that would require a restart.

Maybe it isnt an option for some but I guess most of us are fairly familiarized with windows and might not need that UAC?

longhair_kev · 1 Sept 2009

Thanks for the post Malc.

Now I understand why there is no way at the moment to run the program as an ordinary user.

Well I would certainly prefer the normal save/export locations to be within the local user. This is normal practice for any windows application. If, say, during program launch SynthMaker were to use the current locations in 'program files' as it does now, and then automatically load any additional plugins and modules found in user folders, then I think we would have a great solution. The contents of the 'program files' folders would define the 'default' setup for the program for all users, and individual additions or changes to standard modules would only be reflected for each user that made them.

The 'preferences' section would need a couple of file location settings added, so that the user could decide where these personal folders should be.

It would still be possible to store to the 'program folders' locations if you wished, by selecting that location in the 'save as' dialog, where Windows will recognise the need to elevate privileges for folders which the user does not have permission and automatically offer the UAC prompt.

I'd just like to mention to 'aliasant' that UAC in Windows is nothing to do with how familiar you are with Windows. It is there to prevent malicious software from executing and performing actions which change the system without your knowledge or permission. Certain websites and most viruses try to run code with privileges in order to do their dirty work on your computer, and of course you would not know that this was going on without UAC. The idea is that you know that you are changing your system when you install new software for example, so you allow this to happen by saying YES to the UAC prompt when you start an installation, but if you see such a prompt when you don't expect it then you would normally say NO since it protects your system from unauthorized changes.

One of the problems with SynthMaker always demanding elevated privileges is that people become used to it and so allow it without any concern. But if someone were to put a hacked version of SynthMaker out there which contained a virus then you wouldn't pay any attention to SynthMaker generating a UAC prompt, but in fact you have also allowed the virus free and complete access to your computer. This is in fact exactly what a hacker wants - a program they can hijack for their own purposes - so long as SynthMaker worked properly you'd not realise you had a virus until it had already compromised your computer, and even then you might not realise. Botnets are created using 'stealth' viruses which hide themselves and the illicit goings-on.

The change you have made to your UAC settings by turning it off completely means that now you will not know if system changes are being made to your computer, because Windows will always allow changes. It's up to you of course, but I would recommend that you turn it back on.

Apologies for the rather lengthy post...

Kev.

aliasant · 1 Sept 2009

Well. I have ESET Security running and as far as I know it does the job. What I meant with familiar is that those that are knows how to choose other solutions. But Im not that familiar. Mac guy really but I think ESET is doing the job or?

longhair_kev · 1 Sept 2009

Oh good, you will have a significant degree of protection then. I use an antivirus too. Personally, I regard UAC as one of several important protection mechanisms which keep me free from malicious code, so I don't want to turn it off.

As this is a thread about SynthMaker though, best to leave the security discussion rest there I think, but thanks for the post.

Kev.

aliasant · 1 Sept 2009

longhair_kev wrote: Oh good, you will have a significant degree of protection then. I use an antivirus too. Personally, I regard UAC as one of several important protection mechanisms which keep me free from malicious code, so I don't want to turn it off.

As this is a thread about SynthMaker though, best to leave the security discussion rest there I think, but thanks for the post.

Kev.

=). I agree but this is a good note for those who hesitate to turn that UAC off.

Go ahead if you have other means of protection.