Does anyone want to talk about Max/MSP?

infuzion · 21 Feb 2009

I'm thinking about Max/MSP also, since there will be a Ableton Live version soon. Max/DSP 4 had a VST export with Pluggo(?), v5 does not. They both have SDKs though.

nix · 21 Feb 2009

So with 4 you can export VSTs crossplatform(MAC/Win) yeah it's pluggo, the audio add-on. And there is no au option? It looks an interesting soft though. Quite similar to SM so I might feel at home with it. Cheers

TomC · 21 Feb 2009

nix wrote: Hello folk, I am just thinking about upgrading (my beloved) SM plug making arsenal with Max/MSP. Their forum is down at the moment so I thought I'd ask to clear a few things up. Can you export to au,exe and VST from Max? Also how would I go porting SM code to it? That's about it really. If SM had au I wouldn't pick it up. I'll stick with SM too though. Wishing success in audio manipulation, Nick

There's a 30 day demo available for download. Why don't you just try it out?

Tom

nix · 21 Feb 2009

Cheers eh, I thought I'd test the waters here too and see if anyone likes/dislikes it. On first impressions SM is more user friendly from the get go. Regards

infuzion · 22 Feb 2009

nix wrote: I thought I'd test the waters here too and see if anyone likes/dislikes it.

Do a forum search. Since Max/MSP is much more mature, it has stronger & more accurate MIDI support, video, SDK, dual platform support, bigger user base, etc. The only real drawback IMHO is the price, but you are paying for an entire programming team.

nix · 22 Feb 2009

Thanks infuzion, The Max forum is back up now. There is au export also with Radial for 4. I'm hoping I can get a copy of 4 from somewhere to tide me over until the plug export options are available for 5. It looks pretty good really, although not as immediately geared for audio as SM. Thanks for your thoughts

aliasant · 22 Feb 2009

I have tried Max but I cant get my head around it.

Its all like greek and Im not a greek ;(

nix · 22 Feb 2009

I have to try using further, it's harder to start with than SM for sure. It's actually the Hipno extension that lets you export to au. Cheers

Tom7777 · 23 Feb 2009

I have been thinking about buying this, i probably will at some point but the price is very high though. It can do lots of interesting stuff though so would be loads of fun for all sorts of stuff im sure.

aliasant wrote: I have tried Max but I cant get my head around it.

Its all like greek and Im not a greek ;(

It's basically the same idea with module connecting but i agree it would take a lot of learning and the gui is kinda bad but the recent update improved things, still not great though 🙂

electrogear · 24 Feb 2009

I'd love to talk about Max 🙂 lol. I've had the 30 day trial of Version 5 for 2 weeks now, and when it runs out I'm buying it (I get 50% student discount!!)

Max/MSP looks a bit more scary, but really it's not. Once you get past the lack of a shiny interface (although Max 5 is a lot better looking than Max 4) you start to realise the possibilities. One of the things that was opened up to me last week was the 'list' processing capabilities Max has. When I say 'list' I'm talking about arrays. This is one of the things you're going to have to get used to if you use Max - the naming of the modules is a little bit too literal - triggers are called 'bangs', arrays are called 'lists', and dogs are called 'woofs' (OK I made that last one up).

Max uses a generic object box for all objects. You can add a blank object box to the schematic, then type in the name of the object you want to use (or choose it from a list). Any list processing object starts with 'zl' then you can follow it with a function of some kind. For example, 'zl filter' will filter out any number you set at its right inlet, then the array (list) of numbers is given in its left input (this is the common protocol for max objects - streams of numbers, audio, whatever go in the left input, and modulators, variables, etc go in the right inlets. a trigger in the left inlet will update all inputs and outputs). There are 32 functions for the zl (list) object, which gives a heck of a lot of (CPU efficient) options at your fingertips without actually having to program them from scratch, although if you ever needed to you could - all of the very low level modules are there too.

I've been building a hexagonal button keyboard (based on the harmonic table used by c-thru-music's 'axis' http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=layout_octaves). Max/MSP does present some problems here, but you would have the same problems with Synthmaker. That is mainly the mouse-over on the tiles. According to my lecturer this would more easily (and efficiently) by accomplished using jitter, but we're not learning that until next year, and I don't have time to learn it myself this year either. I realised that I could still solve this problem with Max though - I went about designing a module that would compare the mouse coordinates and then calculate the hypotenuse from the centre of each hexagon and see which was the smallest. I had an awful lot of components - hundreds of them! After the discovery of the 'zl' list processing objects I managed to totally redesign it, keeping all of the calculations in array form without having to split them at any point. There are lots of other modules like 'funnel' which will tag data with a number identifying it's input. I even found a module where you can type in an equation and max will apply that equation to the whole list of numbers. The equation I used was vexpr sqrt (pow ($i1\,2) + pow ($i2\,2)). The 'vexpr' part just means 'carry out this expression on a list of numbers'. It took me a while to understand the syntax but Max is great - if you have a question about a module, you just right click and go to 'help' and it gives a full reference with different scenarios.

Anyway, I get the feeling I'm being boring now. Check out the demo and get addicted to it like you did with SM. If you have the money, the patience, and the time I guarantee you will be impressed! 🙂

P.S. One MAJOR downside is the lack of vst export facility in Max 5 (Max 4 has one although I haven't used it yet). I think they will soon address this after the release of Ableton Live + Max.

nix · 24 Feb 2009

Whoah thanks electrogear! I'll go over your post a few times. Yep, I think I'll pick it up if I can get 4 in the deal. Wishing contents

electrogear · 24 Feb 2009

Cool stuff. I forgot to mention:

'Max' is the mathematical side of the program. Max objects deal with the non-audio data. 'MSP' is the digital signal processing side of the program. MSP objects accept audio signals and manipulate them, and usually have some kind of non-audio data input too. 'Jitter' is the graphical/video side of the program. I've heard great things about it but have only briefly used a couple of objects (one object I used takes a video and will remove a certain range of colours (so for example you could remove the background from a video of a man walking across the screen. It is quite effective). Max also has Java & Javascript objects, so if you wanted you could even create classes, binary trees, etc quite easily (I assume - I haven't actually looked into this yet).

There are other objects such as picture controls etc that don't really fit into any category.

Picture controls are actually just as good as SM when you understand them, although they take a little more time to accomplish. knob strips must be in horizontal format and you also need an image mask under the main image to allow for transparency. You can also have active and inactive images, clicked and unclicked, etc. There are a lot of options in the settings. I got a really nice GUI design for my first project (I got a first for that by the way 😀 ).

Anyway I'm going on a bit - sorry!

I'd recommend buying Max 5 if you have the cash, although Max 4 is very good but there are some things that annoy me about it - some really silly things that make doing larger projects very time consuming, but Max 5 has some great changes that address most of these issues. If you're a student (even part time) you can get a 50% discount. You just need to scan in your student ID and send it to them, and they will reply giving you a code to enter when purchasing.

When you do get around to learning it if you get stuck at any point give me a shout ([email removed]) and I'll do my best to help or find out from my lecturer. I'm not being big headed, it's just that I'm spending about 3 hours per day with Max at the moment so I'm learning it very fast.

Cheers,

Mike

nix · 25 Feb 2009

Thanks a bundle, I'll need all the help I can get. I've contacted Cycling74 but haven't heard back from them, as soon I find out wether I can have access to 4 if I buy 5 I'll pick it up. You wouldn't happen to know if that is so or not? Much appreciated

electrogear · 25 Feb 2009

Hmm, good question. Max 5 patches don't work in Version 4 anyway, so if you want Version 4 just for the VST export I'd either buy Version 4 on it's own, or wait until Version 5 has an export facility.

nix · 25 Feb 2009

I don't think I can buy 4 from the website? I'll call them tonight I think. I would kinda like to get cracking 🙂

infuzion · 25 Feb 2009

nix wrote: I don't think I can buy 4 from the website?

IMHO, I'd skip to 5; the GUI editor is better & faster, there will be a Live-Max5 soon, & VST export soon after that. I'd think 4 will be not updated soon if not already.

nix · 25 Feb 2009

I'll only get 4 if it comes with 5. Just waiting for America to wake up. Cheers

electrogear · 25 Feb 2009

Oh right, OKies 🙂 Well I know you can buy 4 then pay another

nix · 25 Feb 2009

I'll be back soon with questions, SM is keeping me busy right now-I'll focus on max more soon sure. Thanks again for the tuts 🙂

nix · 26 Feb 2009

OK , I picked up Max5 and Jitter, 4 comes with 5. Just looking through the pluggies in Pluggo, I hope I can get them to load up so they're editable. If I make anything useful I will share with you electrogear, but it sounds like I need more help than you 🙂 . Cheers

electrogear · 26 Feb 2009

I would love to see some of your work, and likewise I can send you some stuff I've done if you like? I made a pretty neat drum sampler last year in Max 4. I'm lucky to have a Max expert at Uni but it's always good to have a fresh perspective, I'm sure you will probably pick it up faster than me anyway, I'm not the fastest learner. 🙂

Thanks,

Mike

electrogear · 23 Mar 2009

Bought the full version with jitter yesterday.

I asked them about pluggo (the vst export software) and they have said they can't give a time line as to when it will be updated for Max 5, and they can't give me a student discount on it. Bit disappointing, but I can see why - I guess they don't want students being able to make commercial plugs on the cheap...

so, looks like another