From the original SynthMaker forum (2004–2014), with its members’ names and dates.
infuzion ·
Take this file:
[old link]
...then change out the knobs, patch changer, add delay, then charge 20Euro?!?
http://tektoog.zapto.org/TyByX01.htm
Am I being too prudent to say this is simply wrong?
tektoog ·
hey, Infuzion
I wouldn't say this is wrong.... as all reverb units different than the WAV ones would also be wrong.
Or any DAW different than logic or Cubase wouldn't need to be developed as these 2 are, I guess, the best softwares out there... I just made this plug in, cause it suits my musical needs... Sure it can sound the same, I admit it, first cause a TB-303 is a TB-303, and second, cause I copied the sound engine from the example, but aren't examples made for that purpose?
The 20 euro charged here are definately not for that .... not for the sound engine, but for the workflow efficiency I added to it.
For instance all knobs are CC assignable, fx section extends the sound creativity, my GUI is way more attractive (to me at least) and the main focus here, like on all my plug ins, is the randomisation options, which is a feature I've been looking for on every plug-ins I've been trying since my first buy of Native Pro-52 back in 2000.... and that feature is most of the time is inexistent....
This randomisation feature, either on the sound itself, the fx section or both, is the real asset of this synth...
If you wanna stick with the example one, nobody obliges you to buy my stuff....
This is an ethical issue....
Take care...
Tektoog
Acrobat ·
Logically speaking, you can apply a price on almost anything you want but that's not necessary the real value or give any secure chance to sell, actually. 🙂
TomC ·
infuzion wrote: Am I being too prudent to say this is simply wrong?
Yes my friend, you are.
If there's a free example/code/whatnot on the internet it's perfectly fine to do with it whatever you want (after all, that's the meaning of free).
And if you're clever enough to get
0 for something everyone could download for free if he searched for it, well, you're clever.
And I'm not specifically referring to the case here where (as it seems) the original example was improved/changed.
Tom
Tom7777 ·
No offense to the dev but it seems like a collage of forum parts and the TB-303 example with a new GUI like you say Infuzion, as far as i know it's fine to do though but if selling imo one should build from the ground up or heavily adjust things but thats just my view really.
On the original point/question i would say it has to be modified to the degree it's not totally ovious where it came from or what was used for it, so additional customizations if using forum stock modules or using only the low level internal blocks as a start point but changing the structure completely.
But yeah on the usage as TomC says if it's online it will most likely get used however im sure that one has to ask if it's ok to use for various modules as some forum examples are only posted for learning but some don't realize that.
SM Forum history of this happening -
new instruments released
The main thing is if you don't want your work to get re-sold by someone just keep it to yourself, although that can be hard if asking for help/fixes as i have seen stuff from help threads get used before too.
TomC ·
Tom7777 wrote: The main thing is if you don't want your work to get re-sold by someone just keep it to yourself, although that can be hard if asking for help/fixes as i have seen stuff from help threads get used before too.
Just add a disclaimer about the usage before posting. A little "Copyright Tom Crowning. Unauthorized commercial usage permitted without explicit permission" inside the schematic and you can sue him when he/she starts selling your stuff.
So my advice to all of you is, just copy and paste the line above into all your schematics. You're allowed to use my name for that.
Tom
Acrobat ·
TomC wrote:
Tom7777 wrote: The main thing is if you don't want your work to get re-sold by someone just keep it to yourself, although that can be hard if asking for help/fixes as i have seen stuff from help threads get used before too.
Just add a disclaimer about the usage before posting. A little "Copyright Tom Crowning. Unauthorized commercial usage permitted without explicit permission" inside the schematic and you can sue him when he/she starts selling your stuff.
So my advice to all of you is, just copy and paste the line above into all your schematics. You're allowed to use my name for that.
Tom
Staying in sub-argument, there where rumors about Outsim preserving some rights over our stuff created with SM, can that be true in legal terms?
TomC ·
Acrobat wrote: Staying in sub-argument, there where rumors about Outsim preserving some rights over our stuff created with SM, can that be true in legal terms?
If you buy the "Standard Edition", you're free to do whatever makes you happy:
Standard Edition
For individuals who wants to use the software for a
commercial purpose or any company or organisation
(including universities and colleges) regardless
of their intended use of the software.
Tom
Tom7777 ·
Just add a disclaimer about the usage before posting. A little "Copyright Tom Crowning. Unauthorized commercial usage permitted without explicit permission" inside the schematic and you can sue him when he/she starts selling your stuff.
Staying in sub-argument, there where rumors about Outsim preserving some rights over our stuff created with SM, can that be true in legal terms?
From what i have read in the past if you post a unique example on the forum you are the copyright holder in case of issues but no doubt it could get alot deeper so i think as said before keep it offline if you don't want it re-produced, im guessing the majority of new users think of forum posted stuff like clipart and they can just stick it here there and everywhere when the original intent was most likely for learning or sharing tricks with other users. But i think even if you stick copyrights in every sub module people will still totally ignore them all or think of it as a that guy made it but i will/can use it thing.
Then theres also the old arguement people use of but i made it very similar it's mine etc when it isn't really and that gets tricky, i think the blatent copy is the most ovious where it's exactly the same and a high level module with no gui change like on a preset browser, advanced ADSR or full effect etc and you still see this happen. It's basically why i hardly ever post full examples online anymore for all apps i use music, 3d, 2d as they will always end up on some website/product with someone elses name attached. What i am happy to do is sharevery low level componants because if they used them at least they make something unique most of the time as it's not a full setup/project, also fully finished results like a vst plugin etc.
I think Malc would be the only one who could say unless someone asks him, even if there was though as i say people still do it and because the webs so vast sometimes you may never know about it so the best things always to resurve what you wouldn't want plasted across the web.
Edit -
For individuals who wants to use the software for a
commercial purpose or any company or organisation
(including universities and colleges) regardless
of their intended use of the software.
I don't think that means one could claim work as there own copyrighted works, i think that just means you can use freely for commercial uses, maybe the text should be updated to clarify usage of forum/user posted content.
infuzion ·
Well, here is were I am coming from:
1) First Person Shooter map editing (atleast in the Unreal Tournament world)
Often a map will say "Do not edit & redistribute without the explicate authorization of this author" in the .readme or on their website. However, most of the time, you will download the map more or less directly from the game server inside the game, not in a .7z/.ZIP/.RAR file from a website. And sometimes the only way to get a unique map is to download inside UT game server.
Either way, all of the community expects you to get an OK directly from the original map/model author if you were to edit one of their maps. If you do not get permission, or have atleast attempted 3+ different ways, then you are considered a thief.
2) Here in the USA, ALL creative work is automatically considered (C)opyright, unless the creating author writes their own terms. Usually, it is OK if you use something as a template & create something new out of it.
Selling a VST with knobs from this forum is no big deal I think, because when the author posted the parts, it is implied that people are going to use them. The 303 was a community project, so I don't see any trouble if you were to use sub-parts (eg filter, wavetables) in your own works. However, re-skinning & selling an entire OSM that is not explicitly said to be allowed to be done plus not is "bad taste" at best, but is likely to be illegal.
Please show me in your copyright laws that this is not so.
You might be able to get away with it if you gave it away for free with your own skin & logo with a linkback to the original saying that you are more or less "improved" the old version. And you use that to draw people to your site to make money off of other VSTs. Taking something someone created & selling it without giving them money is stealing. That is why I put this in the WIKI.
TomC wrote: Just add a disclaimer about the usage before posting. A little "Copyright Tom Crowning. Unauthorized commercial usage permitted without explicit permission" inside the schematic and you can sue him when he/she starts selling your stuff.
LOL @ "Tom Crowning" & not ~your name~ 😉
But like I said, everything is automatically considered (C) here in the USA. Perhaps I should put a notice in sig of all my forums I'm on.
Acrobat ·
About your last notice, Tom7777, you are right,
as a FREE COMMERCIAL use of a SM creation does
NOT necessarly means you OWN ALL the RIGHTS,
so my side-question is still open... 😉
In the worst case, like a common reseller, you can be free to
commercialize something but you don't own the copyright of
everything you sell in your shop..
...mmm...maybe you are more likely developing for a
specific platform, like a game for PS3...?
TomC ·
Tom7777 wrote:
For individuals who wants to use the software for a
commercial purpose or any company or organisation
(including universities and colleges) regardless
of their intended use of the software.
I don't think that means one could claim work as there own copyrighted works, i think that just means you can use freely for commercial uses, maybe the text should be updated to clarify usage of forum/user posted content.
That disclaimer is of course for what YOU develop using SynthMaker.
What you download/read and use from internet is something completely different of course. My answer was related to your statement "there where rumors about Outsim preserving some rights over our stuff created with SM".
If this would be the case I'd never bought SynthMaker.
Nor any other development environment I use.
Tom
matti ·
Selling free software is wrong. Maybe not illegal in all cases, but wrong.
Acrobat ·
TomC wrote: I don't think that means one could claim work as there own copyrighted works, i think that just means you can use freely for commercial uses, maybe the text should be updated to clarify usage of forum/user posted content.
That disclaimer is of course for what YOU develop using SynthMaker.
Noice news! 😀
Tom7777 ·
That disclaimer is of course for what YOU develop using SynthMaker.
What you download/read and use from internet is something completely different of course. My answer was related to your statement "there where rumors about Outsim preserving some rights over our stuff created with SM".
Acrobat said that.
Acrobat said -
"Staying in sub-argument, there where rumors about Outsim preserving some rights over our stuff created with SM, can that be true in legal terms?"
🙂
Im not sure why anyone would want to get SM if they did not want to build there own unique stuff really, if one wants to just add some extra things it's basically just a modification so should probably be made free especially if the extras are forum posted things too considering they were all posted for free. But thats my view i guess.
mayo ·
Dave, just wondering:
Dave wrote: Based on the free .osm from this site.
Which one please?
Dave wrote: Supersaw from the board (perhaps the one from C.Hackl).
How do you know? Do you have an .osm of this one or you just think?
Dave wrote: Just based on ready modules...
That's wrong?
Dave ·
mayo wrote:
Dave wrote: Based on the free .osm from this site.
Which one please?
AM TB-30X 2.0
http://www.amvst.com/index.php?name=Dow ... tails&id=3
The previous version was available as .osm here.
mayo wrote:
Dave wrote: Supersaw from the board (perhaps the one from C.Hackl).
How do you know? Do you have an .osm of this one or you just think?
It got the same controls and sound exactly the same 🙂 Any questions? *G
mayo wrote:
Dave wrote: Just based on ready modules...
That's wrong?
No, but it's a shame if someones uses 90% ready done work and publish it with slogans like "Digital algorythms written in C++/Assembler based on real analog circuits and codes from DSP chips."
PS: mayo are you coincidentally from G-Sonique? 😉 Yes, you are.
trogluddite ·
mayo wrote: publish it with slogans like "Digital algorythms written in C++/Assembler based on real analog circuits and codes from DSP chips."
Quality of plugin is often inversely proportional to quantity of hyperbole. But hey, 90% of all the money made by large corporations is made by selling minute variations on the same old sh*t dressed up in flowery language and fancy TV advertising. Keep your bullshit detectorsturned up to 11 at all times! LOL 😉
mayo ·
Dave wrote: PS: mayo are you coincidentally from G-Sonique? 😉 Yes, you are.
No, just wondering, because I thought you have an .osm of those and wanted to see them, looks interesting...
Personally I don't think that something based on something must be immediately theft or so, look into real world, it is full of similiar goods with just 10% differences
Dave ·
mayo wrote: No, just wondering...
Sorry, but you are a bad liar.
You posted this some year ago:
by mayo on Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:29 am
People we are not doing anything wrong because the Synthmaker's example synth is doing the same problems by itself.
Could you proof it?
http://www.psytrance.sk/ExampleSynth.zip
Domain-name psytrance.sk
Admin-name MAGNETIC
Admin-address Holubyho 30, Piestany 92101
It's no wonder that G-Sonique is based in the same country and in the same city as you hm? 😉
G-Sonique Digital Instruments is a company located in the town of Piestany in the Slovak Republic (EU)
Also funny that G-Sonique uses GoDaddy to hide his company address. Something to hide?
They put more work in the protection of the (partly ripped) plugins then invent new features:
Thread about ripped gfx: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209805
Sorry guys i got nothing against you personally but i can't take your company/products/appearance seriously.
aliasant ·
Oops. .. ...
MegaHurtz ·
infuzion wrote: Take this file:
[old link]
...then change out the knobs, patch changer, add delay, then charge 20Euro?!?
http://tektoog.zapto.org/TyByX01.htm
Am I being too prudent to say this is simply wrong?
Whaha he must have shit for brains that one, what kind of a lame presentation of en even lamer concept.
Sew him for ignorance! This product truely boicots itself.
All I can say is wahaha!
mayo ·
Dave wrote: Sorry, but you are a bad liar.
OK Dave, I give up, but the reason for hiding the identity was absolutly different as your, sorry for the expression, bullshit ripping theory
Dave wrote: Also funny that G-Sonique uses GoDaddy to hide his company address. Something to hide?
I don't know what are you talking about? What is GoDaddy? If my registrant is using something like that, that's not my business. Look for any other site of that registrant, will be using the same thing probably...
Will continue with your theory:
The Alien303 is excellent in basslines for psytrance style, try to do it with your mentioned AM TB-30X 2.0 - impossible
Show me one synth which sounds like Renegade - impossible
If these were just ripped modules and nothing else, you can do that with many plugins, but you can't, guess why...
I confess that our initial products were more inspired by the stuff here and there, but that's everyone's start and it's history for now.
AngularMomentum wrote: Yeah sure, I asked him not to use the Freehand graphics and this guy just said to me I was an a-hole and did not have any rights to my own work as I did not offically copyright it. Very unfriendly persons over there.
How funny to see as you can make your short version of the history. First of all I offered you the knobs removal and told you SORRY for this, and tried to explain you that's the graphic guy was not just taking your final product, but redrawn it from the scratch and the fact that's NOT illegal, what's true. You answer with sue and jail threats!
Tom7777 wrote: ... what AM said above just makes me think they took some images off google for the product page.
Bullshit, if not, show me these images on google! You can't because they are only in our camera as originals...
You all looks like old womens drivel on the local market...
Dave ·
mayo wrote: OK Dave, I give up, but the reason for hiding the identity was
So what is the reason then? 😉 It's common that (real) companies show their address under contact and not only a contact form.
mayo wrote: I don't know what are you talking about? What is GoDaddy? If my registrant is using something like that, that's not my business. Look for any other site of that registrant, will be using the same thing probably...
Nobody uses GoDaddy.com coincidentally 😉 Only people who have something to hide do this...
mayo wrote: Will continue with your theory: The Alien303 is excellent in basslines for psytrance style, try to do it with your mentioned AM TB-30X 2.0 - impossible
Of course... because you've changed some small things inside 😉 I guess it's a mashup of [old link] and AM TB-30X 2.0.
mayo wrote: Show me one synth which sounds like Renegade - impossible
Sorry but Renegade isn't that special as you mark it. Without the supersaw from Hackl it wouldn't sound how it sounds. There is nothing special inside... seems like you take this and that from the board and put it all together to create your "own" superspecialsynth (of course with "Digital algorythms written in C++/Assembler based on real analog circuits and codes from DSP chips" HAHAHA).
I think Renegade got potential but you wrote this @ KVR:
We are working on updates but sometimes it is more difficult to make big updates and it is easier to make complet new synth! With big updates we will need to rebuild complete inner structure, problems with older presets...
Renegade is 2 years old and you did'nt expand it with new features but only bugfixes:
* Fixed problem with exported MIDI automation in almost all hosts.
* Better compatibility with Windows 7 & Vista UAC.
* Fixed several memory issues that were causing crashes when deleting plugins in some host applications.
(* new protection system in hope to keep crackers away )
I hope you change your policy and come up with a real "own" megasynth one day!!!
Btw: It's no problem for freaks to look inside all of your .dll-files and see the osm-structure.
mayo ·
Dave, I was only hiding the identity here on forum, nowhere else, what are you talking about? We show our full address everywhere, in our terms on our site, in every one installer, in every one licensee of our product, in our demoversions etc, don't have problem with this. I'm NOT using GoDaddy.com I don't know what it is. Our domain is registered in regular way as thousands of others by the Websupport company, nothing more:
http://whois.domaintools.com/g-sonique.com
Dave wrote: seems like you take this and that from the board and put it all together to create your "own" superspecialsynth
How do you think the real electronic stuff is created? Nobody is producing his own rezistors, coils, capacitators etc.. These are all putted togehter from diferent companies to create a final product and the way HOW they are going together and HOW they are connected makes the product different and in its way unique! All the words about is just the marketing, I thought you knew it, or do you live on other planet where commerce doesn't exist? 😉
Dave wrote: Renegade is 2 years old and you did'nt expand it with new features but only bugfixes:
It's because G-Sonique is not our full-time job! Not for now. We have normal jobs and going to work everyday as normal people do...
Dave ·
mayo wrote: Dave, I was only hiding the identity here on forum, nowhere else, what are you talking about? We show our full address everywhere, in our terms on our site, in every one installer, in every one licensee of our product, in our demoversions etc, don't have problem with this.
Sorry i expect this info under "contact" and not somewhere in the installers. Also it's nowhere on your site... can't find "terms" or something like that.
mayo wrote: I'm NOT using GoDaddy.com I don't know what it is. Our domain is registered in regular way as thousands of others by the Websupport company, nothing more:
http://whois.domaintools.com/g-sonique.com
Yep, but as you can see there is no address of you but only from the hoster 😉
Registrant: Michal Truban
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: G-SONIQUE.COM
mayo wrote: How do you think the real electronic stuff is created? Nobody is producing his own rezistors, coils, capacitators etc.. These are all putted togehter from diferent companies to create a final product and the way HOW they are going together and HOW they are connected makes the product different and in its way unique! All the words about is just the marketing, I thought you knew it, or do you live on other planet where commerce doesn't exist? 😉
Yes, but those companies do not rip components 😉
4. Is it true that your instruments are created using the SM program from Outsim Ltd.?
Yes but actually we do not use the inner modules only. The final product is a combination of SM modules and our own algorithms written using code module in C++ Alike and Assembler language. This means there's no way to create our products by SM program with using its standard modules only.
You talk like "90% of our plugins are done Assember" just to present your average plugins as "superb" 🙂 You know that this isn't true.
mayo wrote: It's because G-Sonique is not our full-time job! Not for now. We have normal jobs and going to work everyday as normal people do...
Common 2 years doing nearly nothing is really sad. I've read @ KVR that you wanna live from the plugin incomings but you're lazy and make crackers responsible for lower sales. Perhaps it's better to work only on 1 big synth than releasing 10-euro-effects every 6 months and do no updates...
Renegade would create much better sounds with ringmod, pwm, phase, fm, sync, (even semitones are missing? wtf?!?)... i'm sure you got enough suggestion how to make Renegade better but it seems like you ignored ALL of them 😉
MichaelBenjamin ·
even if your synths are 100% ripped off public available modules, i dont care, but with that copy protection tacked on i wonder what kind of party is in peoples heads that makes them want to buy it. must be a strange one. but maybe they just want to have certain experiences.
mayo ·
Dave wrote: Sorry i expect this info under "contact" and not somewhere in the installers. Also it's nowhere on your site... can't find "terms" or something like that.
Dave wrote: Yep, but as you can see there is no address of you but only from the hoster 😉
And that's my fault or what? I just bought the domain in exactly same way as milion people do, what's your problem with that? I didn't tell my registrant to hide my address or something, that's ridiculous! There are thousands of other domains registered via this company Websupport with exactly the same data in whois, you want to say that every one told them to hide their address? Don't be stupid, please.
Dave wrote: Yes, but those companies do not rip components 😉
Enough! Stop insult us with your hypothesis! You don't have any proofs just bullshit like the stuff with registrant above...
Is this the Renegade supersaw ripped from the board?!
Ha? Is that a Hackl supersaw or other from the board?! Compare it you smarthead.
Renegade would create much better sounds with ringmod, pwm, phase, fm, sync, (even semitones are missing? wtf?!?)... i'm sure you got enough suggestion how to make Renegade better but it seems like you ignored ALL of them 😉
if you knew a SM problematic a bit (from your posts you're still on basic/amateur level) you also knew, that these modifications will change the synth to such a state, that it can't be released as update, but whole new synth, because it will result in loss of all presets, and it will be unable to use it in all currents projects, where Renegade is used. That's the reason why we wrote, that sometimes it is easier to do whole new synth as hard update old one.
Firstly think and verify your arguments before you start blame someone!!!
That's where everybody searches for your company address 🙂 Very clever.
mayo wrote: And that's my fault or what? I just bought the domain in exactly same way as milion people do, what's your problem with that? I didn't tell my registrant to hide my address or something, that's ridiculous! There are thousands of other domains registered via this company Websupport with exactly the same data in whois, you want to say that every one told them to hide their address? Don't be stupid, please.
Your webhoster doesn't protect the whois automatically. He only do this on request. So please don't tell lies again.
mayo wrote: Enough! Stop insult us with your hypothesis! You don't have any proofs just bullshit like the stuff with registrant above...
Okay perhaps it's time to look inside your .dll-files hehe 😉
mayo wrote: Is this the Renegade supersaw ripped from the board?! Ha? Is that a Hackl supersaw or other from the board?! Compare it you smarthead.
You can post what you want, the supersaw idea isn't from you.
mayo wrote: if you knew a SM problematic a bit (from your posts you're still on basic/amateur level) you also knew, that these modifications will change the synth to such a state, that it can't be released as update, but whole new synth, because it will result in loss of all presets, and it will be unable to use it in all currents projects, where Renegade is used. That's the reason why we wrote, that sometimes it is easier to do whole new synth as hard update old one.
Lol, yes i'm a bloody amateur hahaha. Just look at your plugins dude! THIS IS REALLY BASIC STUFF! Nothing to be proud.
You call me an amateur but you're unable to update a synth and keep the old preset valid?! Erm...
mayo wrote: Firstly think and verify your arguments before you start blame someone!!!
You are a liar and ripper that's a fact. Not in all cases of course. But you've shown us here and @ KVR with your rude comments that you don't give a s**t about the customers and tell everybody he/she is stupid but only you are the master.
I don't wanna waste my time longer with guys like you, sorry.
mayo ·
Dave wrote: That's where everybody searches for your company address 🙂 Very clever.
And who is? Provocaters like you? You wanna to send me a postcard? The company address is not secret.
Dave wrote: Your webhoster doesn't protect the whois automatically. He only do this on request. So please don't tell lies again.
FALSE! [email removed] that's my registrant, please ask, you'll se who is wrong
Dave wrote: Okay perhaps it's time to look inside your .dll-files hehe 😉
You are welcome, and don't forget to go back and post your sorry for false blame
Dave wrote: You can post what you want, the supersaw idea isn't from you.
You become very funny, TV is not SONY idea, the car is not VOLKSWAGEN idea, why they are producing them? Please write to them and blame them they are ripping TV&CAR idea!
Dave wrote: You are a liar and ripper that's a fact. Not in all cases of course. But you've shown us here and @ KVR with your rude comments that you don't give a s**t about the customers and tell everybody he/she is stupid but only you are the master.
aaah now I got it, you are the same provocater as that one on KVR!
I simply prooved, that our stuff is not ripped (maybe inspired), and we didn't hide our company address deliberately (why we shall??) but you are just like an old shellac and repeat the same bullshit again and again.
So dear Dave, IGNORE!
Dave ·
mayo wrote: And who is? Provocaters like you? You wanna to send me a postcard? The company address is not secret.
Everybody expect your address, phone/fax and email under "contact". You only serve an email 😉 Nervermind.
mayo wrote: FALSE! [email removed] that's my registrant, please ask, you'll se who is wrong
Why should i ask them? You consciously ordered a protected whois-domain via GoDaddy. No common webhoster do this automatically (except reliable warez hosters of course *g*).
mayo wrote: You are welcome, and don't forget to go back and post your sorry for false blame
No, i rip everything from there and release as my own new superb plugins :-P
mayo wrote: You become very funny, TV is not SONY idea, the car is not VOLKSWAGEN idea, why they are producing them? Please write to them and blame them they are ripping TV&CAR idea!
Your supersaw is based on the Hackl one. That's what i mean.
mayo wrote: aaah now I got it, you are the same provocater as that one on KVR!
You got nothing 🙂 I didn't post in the KVR thread... but it seems like nobody likes you there 🙂
mayo wrote: I simply prooved, that our stuff is not ripped (maybe inspired)
You proved nothing. Seems like everything on your products is "inspired" by other stuff?!
Sorry but you lie to often... just look some posts above... you even don't wanna admit that you are from G-Sonique 😉
trogluddite ·
Topic: How different does a VST needs to be "new'?
Hmm, I was kind of expecting a nice philosophical debate about the relative importance of Sound vs. GUI or where people's fantastic ideas come from or something. Seems I'm intruding on something personal - I'll get my coat 😉
mwvdlee ·
Apart from ethical and philisophical issues, people seem to glance over the fact that "free (as in beer) != public domain". In the world of software there are many flavors of "free".
The TB-303 example may not cost any money, and one may look at the code of it, but that does not automatically mean it's public domain. If no explicit license was stated for the TB-303 example law dictates that full copyright without any license applies to it (assuming the example is copyrightable) and NOTHING can be done with it.
It is not without very good reason that I explicitely claim copyright and state a license (however small it may be; effectively it's public domain) in my MissingLinks module collection. Legally speaking, any example without an explicit license cannot be used by others. Practically there are fair use exceptions that would apply to most small(ish) examples, but legally fair use can only be asserted in court, it is not a right. Personally, I'm not going to be an asshole about the examples I post on this forum 😉
As a side note, this discussion totally ignores that fact that it's all based on a piece of hardware by Roland that everybody just seems to copy at will.
trogluddite ·
mwvdlee wrote: it's all based on a piece of hardware by Roland
...and 90% of end users won't have the monitoring system to tell the difference between sublte variations on filter alogrithms etc. anyway - and 99% of music listeners certainly wouldn't be able to tell (or even care) what the differences are.
Got my first couple of 303 emulators years ago (and haven't fired them up for ages), and I'm left wondering why people think the world needs any more of them - regardless of the technical details of the programming, these plugins are not offering anything conceptually new at all. Same goes for all the Moog/Prophet5/Jupiter etc.etc. clones out there. We've all been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and stuck the sticker on our flight case - making a new clone is a cool way to learn the fine arts of programming plugins, but no amount of marketing blurb is going to convince me that anything truly creative has happened.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with wanting 'classic' sounds in your palette, but it should always be because the sound fits the music rather than just because it is part of the 'formula' for the syle you're aiming at. Nobody would accept a 'paint by numbers' picture as a great work of art - so I wonder why we seem so ready to accept music that blindly follows the 'rules' of a genre. Why does 'dance' music have to be in 4/4 time with a 909 kick on every down beat and a break down/build up after 32 bars, for example? - if people enjoy doing that then fine, have fun, but don't try to convince me that this stuff is in any way creative or 'pushing the boundaries' - it's just lazy.
mwvdlee is perfectly correct about copyright too - it is not something that you purchase or register in the way you would a patent - it exists automatically. You may not cut and paste an implementation or GUI unless specifically told by the creator of the work that it is OK to, no matter how small the part you copy. Follow his example and make it clear when you post stuff whether it is OK to copy or not.
I wonder how many people here have read the licence agreement for their copy of SM, even? It tells you quite explictly under what terms you can release plugins which contain the modules/primitives written by OutSim - if you use the personal edition for example, then you are breaking the terms of your licence if you expect people to pay for your plugins - if you make money from your plugins it is only fair that OutSim get their 'royalties' (i.e.licence fee) for making your plugin possible.
MegaHurtz ·
I think it`s mostly a matter of screwing the community.
As in, "they" decided it`s a fun project to do.. confortable with getting the finished plugin as a reward.
It`s greed that drives people to turn around and sell it. It`s lacking professionality
that disables "the seller" to inprove on the schematic.
So it`s no wonder "the seller" have a hard time debugging this.. he is clueless.
And most of all.. too lazy to next to stealing schematics make some damn presets.
I wonder whats worth more in revenue.. selling one peice of software.
Or losing never had creddability as a develloper.
I think we can leave legality out of this one since it`s open source.
And pro`s be pro`s so I wont buy crap in the first place, nevermind closely guarded crap.
So I for one (If I did like to use it) i`d use it`s source.
Guess yr one in a million stupid if you dont.
MegaHurtz ·
On the other hand I think it`s funny how everyting gets recycled around here.
Like most of the synthmaker plugs come with "oversampling" and are "ASM Otimised".
With that vintage sound of fold over distortion on theyr oscillators. 🙂
Im glad to say that the defenition of analog is still "NOT DIGITAL".
I predict a trend where adding noise here and there oscillating the heck out of stuff is called analog.
mwvdlee ·
MegaHurtz wrote: I think we can leave legality out of this one since it`s open source.
I strongly, VERY STRONGLY disagree.
Open source licenses like GPL, BSD, Apache and MIT exist exactly because of legal reasons; they are all explicitely designed to protect copyright albeit not in the conventional way. Open source license infringment has been succesfully sued in the past, in multiple countries.
It is important in this particular case; if the TB303 code was public domain than no, it is not theft, even if he hadn't changed a single thing and sold it for thousands of dollars. If it was not public domain and did not contain a license permitting redistribution then no matter how much he changed it, he wouldn't even be allowed to give it away for free.
MegaHurtz ·
You are right it can be protected As done before.
But there`s nothing to prosecute here.. Why would you?
trogluddite ·
MegaHurtz wrote: I predict a trend where adding noise here and there oscillating the heck out of stuff is called analog.
I think very much here it is like the placebo effect in medicine. The plugin blurb says 'analogue', and end users with crappy speakers listen to an mp3 and they're dumb brain says 'oh yes, so much better! - here's my credit card'. As we say in Yorkshire; 'A fool and his money are easily parted' . I wonder how many 'musicians' who've grown up only knowing computers even know what the word 'analogue' truly means.
I have some real analogue (I have the soldering iron burns to prove it!), but also I like 8bit/glitch style music. Is 'digital' now a cuss word or something? - no, it is just another different option to analogue/samples/acoustic guitar/banging rocks together. I grew up in the 80's - everybody wanted a DX7 because they said analogue was so lame (and to be fair, FM was a whole new way to make sounds) - but some really innovative synth makers went bust just because they couldn't honestly put the word 'digital' on the front panel.
My latest project uses loads of interpolation, but I want low CPU - at first I thought, 'maybe the gurus can help me get rid of that little bit of aliasing' - but a few of my mates who are helping as Beta testers came back to me saying they like the 'weird crunchiness' on the sound - so now I prefer to think of it as a happy accident that gives my plugin 'character'.
TomC ·
MegaHurtz wrote: Im glad to say that the defenition of analog is still "NOT DIGITAL".
Actually, there's no 'analog' in electronics. Just things WE define as analog in our macro world.
I predict a trend where adding noise here and there oscillating the heck out of stuff is called analog.
It's easy to predict things that already started like 10 years ago 🙂
Tom
trogluddite ·
TomC wrote: Actually, there's no 'analog' in electronics. Just things WE define as analog in our macro world.
Yes, analogue circuit modelling and physical modelling are so 20th century - bring on the quantum physics modelling! 😉
Could be fun - Shroedinger's GUI - the control settings are an unknown quantity until you collapse the wave function by looking at the screen!
MegaHurtz ·
I dont know if what I think it is, is good for humanity 🙂
Thats why godless saps still failing to solve this..And Einstein gets chewed when he sais it has
a tremendous amount of engineering inteligence.. and yes a soul.
Maybe we have to get a direct line to god see if he can fuse us a cup of cofee and a pack of smokes.
But why be human then?
MegaHurtz ·
TomC wrote: It's easy to predict things that already started like 10 years ago 🙂
Tom
See where it takes us from here 😉
TomC ·
MegaHurtz wrote: But why be human then?
I'm not.
Tom
Jay ·
I see a lot of you are a bit roused by the copying of osm's and them being re-skinned and pased of as "own Creations" by some others!
a good security effort i think would be for the creators of these ripped synths/efx to improve them and release them as free plugs with full information on how they have been ripped off,the name of the ripper and the fact that these are the better and free alternatives! flood the vst scene with them!
that should help stop others making cash from your much appreciated free examples!
Best Regards
MegaHurtz ·
TomC wrote: I'm not.
Tom
And they dont even know it, shmeeshmee.
TomC ·
MegaHurtz wrote:
TomC wrote: I'm not.
Tom
And they dont even know it, shmeeshmee.
I use human bodies because there's unfortunately nothing better available on this Planet.
At least nothing if you prefer to walk upright.
Tom
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