Projects Guidlines Discussion

Tom7777 · 25 May 2005

4 If releasing as VSTis should the then complete project be moved into the early adopters section ? (That is if we finish any of this stuff before V1 🙂 )

I think so, maybe the early adopters should have sub topics like general chat, examples, finished VSTI ect when it gets a bit bigger and then anyone that wants people to hear there synths and not have people steal the source could post all the synths in there and that would work. A VSTI topic in general is a good idea and is something extra for early adopters 🙂

unkargherth · 25 May 2005

Nu Audio Science wrote: Just thought i would post this so we know where we are

1 If somebody comes along and uses parts of a project inside there own project commercial or non commercial is this OK (Fine by me)

Well, from the moment we are sharing ideas and osm's in a public forum, we can't do anything on it. Fine to me

Nu Audio Science wrote: 2 If for the purposes of prototyping at speed for myself and other SE converts, Would it be OK to post these prototypes although made in SE ? (Fine by me obviously)

For me too, except malc and /or jorge decide to forbid it ( in fact this a SM forum)

Nu Audio Science wrote: 3 Should the synth projects be released (Once complete) as VSTis to publicise SM a bit (I haven't been able to find even a public beta made with SM yet) , Or should they be kept as OSMs ?

Provided that they will be pusblished as freeware and with no schematic, for me it's ok ( although everybody could came here to get the schematic in fact )

Nu Audio Science wrote: 4 If releasing as VSTis should the then complete project be moved into the early adopters section ? (That is if we finish any of this stuff before V1 🙂 )

In fact, i prefer that all project was in early adopters, but as this seems not practical, at least VST should go there

Tom7777 · 25 May 2005

In fact, i prefer that all project was in early adopters, but as this seems not practical, at least VST should go there

I agree, basically becuase i don't like people taking others work and calling it there own, i know that some of you don't care but thats just my opinion. If you think about it finished projects are the type of examples that these type of people will want most and will just change the skins and put it on sale. If the projects gets moved to the early adopters area then at least they will have to pay the price of the program to do this. When SM gets more popular think of how many FM3x clones there will be online if your thinking that this is not a valid comment.

Nu Audio Science · 25 May 2005

Well i dont care but i guess you all already know that 🙂

infuzion · 26 May 2005

I would advise everyone to put some sort of release statement on how they would like their creation to be used & re-used. Here in USA, everything you make creatively is automaticly copyrighted. Sending what you made to the copyright only helps prove it's yours & when you made it.

http://CreativeCommons.org/ should help.

Secondly, I wouldn't mind if Projects gets moved to Early Adopters/Registered Users forums, even as a non-registered user.

stefan · 26 May 2005

I'll just quote myself 🙂 "My plan is to develope synths and effects and release high and mid level modules for anyone else to use/abuse/alter/learn from or whatever."

skOre · 26 May 2005

Yep, I think it should be somewhere between PublicDomain (stefancrs), GNU GPL (if you use it, and use it for your own stuff, everything you do with it has to be as free as the thing that you were using), or CreativeCommons (infuzion).

Going he straight copyright way is another story that we would have to get back to if everything else fails. I still think that copyrighting in its original idea is very far away from the internet world, and far away from really having fun with it 😉

bones · 26 May 2005

I think the total lack of output from SM users in the wider world is a huge minus for the application. I decided to become an early adopter purely on impulse [tell anyone and I'll kill you] after total frustration with trying to get a usable unison set-up in SE. Right now its probably only my stubbornness that keeps me from going back to SE. I probably would have got on board much sooner if there had been even two or three SM-created VSTi available to give me a little confidence that it is worth switching. Having been hanging around here for a while now I realise that it is largely because most users seem to be tinkerers more than anything else [no offence, just stating facts] but the message it sends is that its too hard to do anything in SM [otherwise there'd be plenty of stuff by now, surely]. To a certain extent, I feel this is true [right now, anyway] but I know there are enough people here with the skills to create some half-decent examples that would undoubtedly arouse a lot more interest in SM. A simple 2 oscillator subtractive synth with a good sound that is consdierably more efficient than something similar made in SE would be a huge boost. A nice port of FREEVERB that I saw mentioned would also be handy. My plan is ultimately to create the next generation killerz but, because I know that it will take a lot of work for me to be able to better my current SE monstrosities, I intend to create some "technology previews" that will hopefully make it perfectly clear that SM is a clearly superior platform to SE. My first effort will probably be something really simple for me, because I will steal as much from other sources as possible, that looks like a little killer and has features that I could never make in SE. e.g. FM3x already has a useful oscillator and those amazing LFO but its filter doesn't sound very good at all [and it works funny]. If someone could provide me with a decent filter it would only take me a week or so to turn out a simple VSTi that would really get people looking more seriously at SM.

Anyway, back on topic, I suppose its up to everyone involved in any project to come to a consensus as to what/how things are shared. Personally, I won't be working with anyone [but I will be using the fruits of your labour whenever possible] but everything I do/make will be freely available to anyone who wants to use it, no strings attached. Realistically, I think that is the only way that public collaborations can work so if you don't want to share it, don't put it up anywhere.

Tom7777 · 26 May 2005

A nice port of FREEVERB that I saw mentioned would also be handy.

Maybe you should actually read through the forum as this has already been made dude 🙂

IMO SE is a mess becuase it is so public now and is basically a money making tool for a load of bad synth designers copying others examples and changing the skins. This could well be the reason why a lot of people using SM are not putting out new synths every week i guess. I doubt i will ever put the stuff that people think are not possible at the moment as they are and took a long time to do and i have had lots of stuff stolen from me before and i learned from my mistakes, i already have released examples though so don't get me wrong i will share stuff thats just the way i feel right now.

Shifrin · 26 May 2005

I pretty much feel like stefan with this, I'm not really bothered what people do with the stuff I release, god knows how many people have taken from musicdsp.org and stuffed filter code etc from there into their own work...

If people profit from something I've done that's cool - I'm not fussed 🙂

Oh yeah, Tom is right Bones. Freeverb has been ported to SM. You could knock up a GUI for it and release it pretty much as is :-

"Freeverb" port...

My reason for still 'tinkering' is more due to the fact that the software is still beta - I wouldn't want to release a VSTi thats causes a run-away cpu issue on peoples machines/or any other bugs like that. The way I see it it could cause harm for SM - sure more people would find out about it, but if they then decided not to bother with it due to bugs in the beta versions that'd not be too good.

Anyways, I for one do intend to release stuff and not just tinker with SM 🙂

Shif.

Tom7777 · 26 May 2005

FM3x already has a useful oscillator and those amazing LFO but its filter doesn't sound very good at all [and it works funny]. If someone could provide me with a decent filter it would only take me a week or so to turn out a simple VSTi that would really get people looking more seriously at SM.

Why not make your own filter? That is always the best way to make things i think.

malc · 26 May 2005

I think Shif hits the nail on the head bones. The main reason most of the guys here are just tinkering at the moment is that SM, whilst very close to version 1 is still changing. I'm sure they won't remain tinkerers forever 🙂

We've fixed loads of bugs but we also introduce them occasionally as we implement new features. There are still some key issues remaining that need to be resolved before anyone could consider releasing anything other than a beta of a VST/i.

But of course there's nothing wrong with releasing betas to show what the software can do. Your technology previews idea sounds great. We just don't have the time to do this kind of thing ourselves at the moment. We created FM3x a while ago now but there are so many other things that we need to deal with.

I can see how the lack of examples would affect the amount of attention we're getting. However, I don't see this as a major problem at this stage. Our biggest issue at the moment is being able to continue developing the software to version 1 and having enough people who are prepared to put up with the things that are missing in order to help test it.

In conclusion, It would be great to see more examples of SM creations but I can understand why this isn't happening and I'm not overly worried about it...for now anyway.

Regarding the Project Guidelines, it's up to you guys - the forum is yours to use as you wish - publish and release what you want, where you want.

jorge · 26 May 2005

bones wrote: FM3x already has a useful oscillator and those amazing LFO but its filter doesn't sound very good at all [and it works funny]. If someone could provide me with a decent filter it would only take me a week or so to turn out a simple VSTi that would really get people looking more seriously at SM.

The moog filter in the example file is a very simple one. Here is a version using the Moog Ladder Filter that rl posted last march. [old link]

And here is the thread where rl posted the Moog Ladder Filter code: Fun with SM (Moog ladder filter)

unkargherth · 26 May 2005

Well. My position of preferring the "Comunity projects" stay in early adopters area is at follows:

I know that everything that i pusblish here is basically, "public domain, roll on your own, opensource, no waranties, no string sttached" type of thingy. And it's ok for me, no prob

Why i prefer Early adopters then? Because if rumours grow about something relatively interesting in early adopters area of forum, this could lead to :

a) Some people early adopt impulsively, giving the SM comunity ( and outsim) an advance to have a critical mass

b) People whio early adopt find some useful tricks ,a kind of portfolio of what can ber done in SM until this moment. And this helps they become a little more entusiastic ( it's told this way?) with the product and also helps on increasing the value/cost ratio.

bones · 26 May 2005

Tom7777 wrote: Maybe you should actually read through the forum as this has already been made dude 🙂

I said I saw it here, what I want to know is why isn't it in the database at KVR [or is it]. If it is, let me know and I'll make a fuss about it over there.

I doubt i will ever put the stuff that people think are not possible at the moment as they are and took a long time to do and i have had lots of stuff stolen from me before and i learned from my mistakes

How can people rip off your VSTi? I'm talking about making VSTi so that people can try them out in their hosts and see for themselves what SM has to offer.

i already have released examples though so don't get me wrong i will share stuff thats just the way i feel right now.

Where are they? Again, if the're in the database at KVR, let me know and I'll make a fuss about it. I've asked half-a-dozen times over there for VSTi examples and the only one I have ever seen is FM3x.

Why not make your own filter? That is always the best way to make things i think.

I could do it the SE way by stacking filters but beyond that I have no idea about even the simple filter code thingies I have seen. From what I've heard of the filter in FM3x, I don't know if stacking them will give me a half-decent result. OTOH, I am thinking of asking a huge favour of my favourite filter maker, I just don't know if he'd help me out or not.

malc (and Shif) wrote: The main reason most of the guys here are just tinkering at the moment is that SM, whilst very close to version 1 is still changing.

Sounds like a cop-out to me. Some of the best SE creations out there were made several years ago with v0.6 [Land of Cockaigne stuff] and whilst newer versions of SM might affect project files, they won't bother a compiled VSTi in the slightest. FM3x shows me that it is possible to make impressive VSTi right now, its just not terribly useful.

As for Moog filters - gross! I want good filters, not Moog filters.

Rellik · 26 May 2005

I think it's definitely important to release VST versions of finished products - really, I want to see how SM-created VST's react to real use (CPU load!)

And it's really up to the head of the project as to what you do with the OSM. Personally, I think stefancrs has the right idea - that's what I would do (what I will do if I buy SM). It's a shame to put it into the Early Adopters forum only - it's not going to stop the spread, really. I suggest that OSM's be distributed on a person-to-person basis - you have to ASK if you want to see it, which I believe makes sense. After all, you don't have to be an Early Adopter to be trustworthy (SM isn't exactly cheap, after all, even as an Early Adopter), and there might even be Early Adopters you don't want to share with!

stefan · 26 May 2005

Rellik wrote: I think it's definitely important to release VST versions of finished products - really, I want to see how SM-created VST's react to real use (CPU load!)

And it's really up to the head of the project as to what you do with the OSM. Personally, I think stefancrs has the right idea - that's what I would do (what I will do if I buy SM). It's a shame to put it into the Early Adopters forum only - it's not going to stop the spread, really. I suggest that OSM's be distributed on a person-to-person basis - you have to ASK if you want to see it, which I believe makes sense. After all, you don't have to be an Early Adopter to be trustworthy (SM isn't exactly cheap, after all, even as an Early Adopter), and there might even be Early Adopters you don't want to share with!

I put my current version of Nildon in the early adopters area, but this is because it's not ready to be released yet and I wanted everybody to have a sneak preview and give me feedback. I will release it "fully" later on. You will not have to ask for Nildon's OSM or for the modules in it, anyone with SM will have access to these.

malc · 26 May 2005

bones wrote: whilst newer versions of SM might affect project files, they won't bother a compiled VSTi in the slightest.

True. As I said, I'd love for there to be more examples out there 🙂.

jorge · 26 May 2005

bones wrote: As for Moog filters - gross! I want good filters, not Moog filters.

ok, so I'll try again, would RBJ filters be any good? RBJ Filters ported UPDATED...

Shifrin · 26 May 2005

bones wrote: I said I saw it here, what I want to know is why isn't it in the database at KVR [or is it]. If it is, let me know and I'll make a fuss about it over there.

It's not in the database at KvR as it's just a 'Freeverb' module in SM at the moment. You could always knock up a gui for it and export as VST 😉

bones wrote: Sounds like a cop-out to me. Some of the best SE creations out there were made several years ago with v0.6 [Land of Cockaigne stuff] and whilst newer versions of SM might affect project files, they won't bother a compiled VSTi in the slightest.

You're right I guess, it is possible to create and release some great stuff right now. Thing is there was (still is? fixed?) a problem with run-away CPU with hanging notes. Maybe it is a cop-out! Also, I'm also still getting used to thing in SM and don't get a great deal of time to play with it, so even if it was a 100% V1.0 final with no bugs at all 😉 I'd still take some time putting together the things I want to make. Of course they may be others (like Stefan) who aren't very far away from a release.

It'll happen!

Shif.

Nu Audio Science · 26 May 2005

Phew I'm not sure im glad i started this thread now. I can tell you one thing though, If i have to put a copy of ownership with anything i do on here i simply wont post anything. I couldn't care less what the law is in the US strictly because i have never turned to the law in my life, I do things my way and that includes sorting things out when people have done me wrong (Believe me you have to go a VERY VERY VERY VERY long way to wrong me)

I reapeat I DONT CARE IN FACT I DONT GIVE A FUCK WHAT ANYONE DOES WITH ANYTHING I POST. INFACT IF YOU POST SOMETHING FOR PEOPLE TO LOOK AND MESS WITH AND THEN WHINE WHEN THEY MAKE SOMETHING BETTER THAN YOU OUT OF IT YOU ARE A TOSSER.

Sorry if i am being a little strong but i hate all this nehnahnenehneh shite If you dont want peple to use your shit dont post your shit I just wanted to know where the projects stand because it concerns others and not just me.

infuzion · 26 May 2005

Nu Audio Science wrote: I DONT CARE IN FACT I DONT GIVE A ---- WHAT ANYONE DOES WITH ANYTHING I POST.

I don't mean to be picky, but I assume then the rule for this forum is:

• If you don't put a release statement in your module & screen shots, it becomes automaticly Public Domain (this includes no referal to the source authors in derived works). • Any included (if included) said release statements must be included in derived works. • No suits or wining if you declare all your works Public Domain, then someone else makes

rl · 26 May 2005

To add my 50 eurocents here:

Creating audio plugins and instruments is a bit more work than just plugging together of some VCO's, VCF's, VCA's,----. People with less experience in programming and DSP are better served with tools like reaktor or synthedit, offering lot's of readymade modules, rather than SM at the moment. I personally have a lot of fun, going levels deeper and design my own dsp routines, UI flow, etc..

to go back on topic: I think its a total lame approach just to rip other peoples work and sell it (or give it away) with new clothes. When using public sources or other peoples work it should be taken for granted to give credits. Thats why I appreciate the creative commons concept.

Tom7777 · 26 May 2005

How can people rip off your VSTi? I'm talking about making VSTi so that people can try them out in their hosts and see for themselves what SM has to offer.

What i said was for .osm example files and not actuall VSTI.

Where are they? Again, if the're in the database at KVR, let me know and I'll make a fuss about it. I've asked half-a-dozen times over there for VSTi examples and the only one I have ever seen is FM3x.

Again i was talking about .osm examples, they are in the examples area, feel free to edit them for a project or something, I don't use KVR often so im not sure what sort of list they have for SM stuff.

Creating audio plugins and instruments is a bit more work than just plugging together of some VCO's, VCF's, VCA's,----. People with less experience in programming and DSP are better served with tools like reaktor or synthedit, offering lot's of readymade modules, rather than SM at the moment. I personally have a lot of fun, going levels deeper and design my own dsp routines, UI flow, etc..

to go back on topic: I think its a total lame approach just to rip other peoples work and sell it (or give it away) with new clothes. When using public sources or other peoples work it should be taken for granted to give credits. Thats why I appreciate the creative commons concept.

Yeah i have to agree with rl on this, i would like to think that people are going to give me credits if they use my examples and also say that they used SM to make there plugin and not claim it's C++ like alot of people do with SE Stuff, there has been a lot of good quality stuff so far with Synthmaker and this IMO is due to the fact that it is very low level and most of the current SM community are interested in the actuall sound/audio and not quick cash like 75% of the SE community is, im sure that when the higher level stuff gets added there will be a lot of clones and badly made stuff released maybe.

bones · 27 May 2005

Forget about SE, what about the work that goes into incredible freebies like Crystal or Synth 1? As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter a tinker's cuss where the bits and pieces come from, as long as the result is worthwhile. I've never taken more than the smallest amount of credit for the things I've made in SE because I am fuly aware that 90% of the work is being done by Jeff and 3rd party module makers. That doesn't make me feel any less proud of my achievements - I think my synths krap all over pretty much anything out there, at any price.

unkargherth · 27 May 2005

bones wrote: I've never taken more than the smallest amount of credit for the things I've made in SE because I am fuly aware that 90% of the work is being done by Jeff and 3rd party module makers.

Honestly bones, Time to rethink everything. Aa you get more involved in SM, you start to feel like this 3rd party module makers you referred to. SM is by now (and i expect forever) much more than "insert the module, conect the wires, save as VST".

As an SE third party module developer ( and proud of it !) I can tell you that SM is by far nearest to the SE SDK than to Reaktor 5. The only real diference is that here you don't need a compiler

But, obviously, this is only my opinion

bones · 27 May 2005

I might one day be proved wrong but I can't ever see myself getting into it that deeply. My interest is in making synths for my own use. In my head I have my ideal synth and I came up against a brick wall trying to finish it in SE so I've jumped ship. I'll always be into the results, not the process.

Tom7777 · 27 May 2005

Well i guess it depends what you want to do with the app basically, IMO making something original is always the best choice, unkargherth is right in saying that you should learn the low level stuff as you will probably be able to do lots more stuff and make the final sound much better than if you are just connecting high level parts together and then exporting as VSTI. But as long as you have fun with the program thats the main thing 🙂

bones · 27 May 2005

The problem is that its all been done. you might think you're doing something original but there will always be someone who's seen it before. My priority is making useful things. e.g. I think z3ta+ sounds amazing and has some pretty cool features but it is ridiculously complicated to use and, for that reason, of absolutely no interest to me. There are plenty of great sounding synths out there but there are bugger-all that are also very usable.

Tom7777 · 27 May 2005

It has not all been done though. Theres new technologys and things invented every day, a lot of people who are original base there sound mostly on known synthesis techniques to start with and then develop them to create new ones.

stefan · 27 May 2005

I see myself mainly as a low level guy. At the moment. As more low level stuff gets finished and put into higher level modules etc, even I will more and more rely on those when assembling new projects.

As I see it, SM will be great for the ones assembling synths as well, not just for the ones developing their own dsp algorithms, synth logics and GUI technologies. When there's plenty of high level modules, the ones that are used to work in Reaktor/SynthEdit/Nord Modular or whatever can work in a similar way in SM. AND they can ask others to for instance add a overdrive to the filter they use, because others can dwelve into the low level parts of the modules.

So I agree with bones, and I do not think that he should have to learn the low level stuff just because he wants to make synths. He doesn't want to make new oscillators or filters, he wants to use oscillators and filters to make the synth he likes. Which is perfectly fine. Out of the different parts I've made in Nildon, no doubt, many very different sounding synths or effects can be made. And I don't see why I should make all of them when someone else, talented in those areas, can do it just as well or even better than what I could.

unkargherth · 27 May 2005

bones wrote: I might one day be proved wrong but I can't ever see myself getting into it that deeply. My interest is in making synths for my own use. In my head I have my ideal synth and I came up against a brick wall trying to finish it in SE so I've jumped ship. I'll always be into the results, not the process.

I didn't want to mean that. I'm not saying you SHOULD go lower level. I was saying that PROBABLY you end in doing something lower level that you used to do. Probably you ned "infected" by an strange virus called "curiosity"

This doesn't means that develop absolutely new kind of osc of filters. Could be in GUI thighy. Some day you'll find a module posted here and you ask yourself" waht if i change this in some other way", and is posible it works in a way nobody here expected before

stefancrs wrote: So I agree with bones, and I do not think that he should have to learn the low level stuff just because he wants to make synths. He doesn't want to make new oscillators or filters, he wants to use oscillators and filters to make the synth he likes. Which is perfectly fine. Out of the different parts I've made in Nildon, no doubt, many very different sounding synths or effects can be made. And I don't see why I should make all of them when someone else, talented in those areas, can do it just as well or even better than what I could.

Obviously is perfectly fine to me too. But I feel that, given enough time nobody here will be free, someday or another, to go in deep to low level, simply because SM aloows it, which is a big difference to the rest.