From the original SynthMaker forum (2004–2014), with its members’ names and dates.
nix ·
Hey all, I have just picked up 3dsMax, so if you have any ideas or would like any 3d graphics let me know what you're after, and I'll see what I can do. I am still a little befuddled about the animation, I always used it for static design, but I have made one knob so far-> http://www.sendspace.com/file/sxwxu5 I'm learning yet, so I might take a while. Wishing content in creation, nix
AngularMomentum ·
That's nice man. original too! 😍
Nu Audio Science ·
Chiken Head 303
Couldn't be bothered finishing either of these They are there if you want them obj format
NAS
AngularMomentum ·
That 303 styled one is awesome! I haven't got a clue with 3d software....I tried blender for a while, but I am just too dumb for that sorta stuff. Corel used to have 3D software that was kinda easy to do, as there was no scripting involved.
Nu Audio Science ·
AM get yourself over to Silo and try the modeler its amazing and so easy to use Also consider lightwave Looks complex at first but is so powerful it hurts Just contact me if you need any help learning the 3D it really isn't that hard for anyone with an artistic bent 😉
NAS
AngularMomentum ·
Thank you very much NAS, I might have some questions, but this program is straight forward..."I like it a lot!"
Here is an example of experimenting about 45 minutes...I do not know how to render yet, so this is what I got sofar...
Thanks again man, I owe you one!!
Nu Audio Science ·
Silo is just a modeler it can render but you have to link it to an external render engine and it wont do animations either
Your best bet is to just get something with a very powerful render engine and animation ability to render your Silo objects
Daz Studio is free and has an amazing render engine and good enough animation
Personally i like a nice shader system in my animation rendering package so that i dont have to draw textures for things as simple as knobs
Blender is pretty much nearly the most advanced 3D animation package available nowadasy out the box but it comes at the price of being butt ugly and a pita to use until you are expert with it Although it has to be said that Blender is now becoming an oft used tool even in the worlds biggest fx houses simply because it does some stuff better than any commercial package available
I'm a lightwave nut and have been since the Amiga days hahahaha
NAS
AngularMomentum ·
double post
AngularMomentum ·
Ah, I thought I new that name from somewhere, I know it indeed from the Amiga, but never really did something with it, as I mostly used it for the Trackers and games...a friend of mine would freak out on it. He did a lot of amazing graphic work on his Amiga.
I see now why I only had the option for external rendering. So modelling becomes very easy with Silo, I only do not know if I am going to fork out 159 bucks for it. Maybe it gives me enough demo time to learn how to model properly, so it becomes easier to do in other (free) software.
I will check into DAZ, I am going to need that for sure I see.
I think I got all the pointers I need now, my goal know is to create an rendered knob from the model above and see what gives, then see if I can get a grip on the animation stuff.
🙂
chironex ·
NAS, those are great knobs! Would you be able to render them as an image-chain, though?
Nu Audio Science ·
Yes you just put materials on them and then animate them and render them
NAS
chironex ·
...which is something I have no clue how to do. X)
Nu Audio Science ·
Well there is two possible answers to that isn't there lol
1 Learn how to do it There are plenty of tutroials online for various packages
2 Don't use 3D
NAS
chironex ·
I think I'm fine with #2, thank you. But these are really cool. I encourage you to use them in synths of yours.
Nu Audio Science ·
I might use the 303 one if i can ever be bothered to finish it and In less time than it would have taken me to setup a shader i had created a chicken head in Knobman for the contract i was doing so the second one isn't gonna get used either
Personally i think 3D is total overkill for GUIs and i love 3D as much as i love music
NAS
AngularMomentum ·
chironex wrote: Yeah, kinda like Avast...except with Avast, it's worth it.
PS @ AngularMomentum: I sent you a PM, but you may not have noticed.
I read, but it would take me quite some time to react, and did not have much time then, and then I forgot all about it. I will see if I can react this week on it. Excuse me please.
nix ·
Hey all, Here are NAS' knobs with shadows. If you want any mods on them let me know-> http://www.sendspace.com/file/kbfiwa Wishing contents in creation, nix
Hlis93 ·
wow that is amazing what a difference over what I am geting in photoshop.
I have been considering autodesk but I don't know what to get, it fairly expensive.
Some questions: Once you modelled it how did you rotate it? how did you get it to PNG?
I downloaded DAZ and Silo as was suggested but honestly what I modeled something very simple and I just couldn't control in DAZ, nor did I see a way to rotate it, and I didn't see anyway to export it for a file that I could convert in Photoshop? Very lost?
Making these little controls is my passion these days any help would be wonderful, I understand if you want to keep it in the "know" however. Thanks.
Nu Audio Science ·
Theres nothing to be in the know about dude First i modelled the knobs in Silo and exported as .obj Then you could load that into DAZ Studio and rotate it (There will be a slider in there to do this) You will need to set a keyframe at the start point and a key frame at the end point and save as an animated set of frames
Basically you need to RTFM its as simple as that or join the forum over at DAZ I can't help you much more because this is the SM forum and beyond maybe ding some tutorials at some point it wouldn't be fair to other forum users
Personally i don't use DAZ studio i use Lightwave and i also don't really use 3D for GUIs because it would take way way longer than using Photoshop for very little gain
I posted those knobs to give nix a little head start but i don't recommend 3D for GUIs at all
By the way nix a small suggestion if you dont mind me making one The lights are set up wrong dude and the knobs shadows are making them look as if they are floating
NAS
nix ·
Hey folk, I'll rework the shadows, like. What do you think is wrong with the lighting, NAS? I just used one spot for each. It's a pity that Max is so expensive. You can export a .png animation(not so hard) with it in single frames so far, then stitch with Png Stitch. There is also a line of light pixels at the shadow edge of the knobs, I thought it subtle enough to leave. If you want Hlis93, I could try to model your ideas, and pass them on to you. Thanks again for the knobs NAS. Cheers, nix
Nu Audio Science ·
No dont rework the shadows on my accoun t If you think they look ok and others agree run with it thats all that counts
Personally i would change the angle of the light distribution to bring the shadow closer in to the knob itself making it looo a little less like the knob was floating
But again like i said that is just personally for me and probably the main reason why i dont use 3D for GUIs hahahahaha i would spend half my time getting it looking so photographic that it would be pointless hahahaha
NAS
Hlis93 ·
thanks NAS
I am going to give that a try!
Hlis93 ·
ok i have something made but what do I do with it now. I loaded the first one into DAZ but it comes out looking sort of funny because its not rounded...ok I don't have a clue what I am doing outside of PS.
Nu Audio Science ·
Rounded = Sub divided yes ? OK you need to turn it on in DAZ thats all
Then when you have it setup use the top camera Then on frame 1 set the rotation for the start position Then on frame 101 ste the key frame on roattion for the end postition Now render the animation
NAS
Hlis93 ·
Thank you.
That subdivid is truely helpful, and thank you for recommending this modeling program I am finding it much easier then anything that I have tried in the past. So far it seems very powerful, getting result in a fair amount of time. I am still working my way through the PDF with the demo of Silo think this might be a keeper. Crap it didn't say all the work I just did .
On last question is there a way to get this with an alpha layer about an hour now and I don't seem to find a setting that does. I am going to try blender but there I have am still reading the opening pages of the book essential blender.
Nu Audio Science ·
Just render as .png The alpha is built in Its that simple
NAS
Nu Audio Science ·
I've setup a good layout in DAZ Studio and saved it So i will do a tutorial and start building a library of primitives to be used in DAZ for people to create there own interfaces Basically ill start doing primitives that can be thrown together to make knobs and then i'll move to displays and stuff too
That way you can just do the renders in DAZ and piece em together in any 2D package
NAS
Hlis93 ·
By primative you mean the obj from Silo? I would contribute to that. I was just about to start to doing that for myself proir to your post.
Hlis93 ·
link has been moved to my web-page http://base-designs.com/home
more knobs that I was experimenting with this evening. The last row seems to float a bit but they do work just fine.
Acrobat ·
Hlis93 wrote: more knobs that I was experimenting with this evening. The last row seems to float a bit but they do work just fine.
thanks you' re going me nuts with all those new controls! Watching this last serie, I had an idea you might like and apply, why not having 2 different PNG strips for each knob,
1. one for the object 2. one for the shodow
so that the user can adjust the shading depth by his on tastes with a simple alpha input on the properties?
I say this because I'm an architect and they taugh me that shadows, in the real thing, depend not only on the light source but also on the surface, the kind of material where they are projected and even because some users might have very bright backgrounds where very a few shadow is required...
A.
Hlis93 ·
My habit for the most part has been to include shadows as part of the bitmap for the background and not as part of the knob. This has kept files down but I have been using knobman and not 3D so I felt many detail could be ignored. I think that having the shadows separate would be a pain to manage because the shadows themselves would have a 101 frame rotation as well as the knob. However by doing it that way perhaps one could adjust the transparency of the shadow, but you wouldn’t really be able to adjust more then that without distorting its dependency on the knob.
None the less I’ll give a try tonight. I Think the best way would simply be to just keep adding the blender files (which I didn't do on this one). I don’t know if that is really a helps any one a vast amount of time could be wasted trying to decipher what did (assuming that what I did had any intentionality). But at least this the exacty depth and quality of the shadow could be made to fit your needs.
Nu Audio Science ·
Just do the knobs without shadow fullstop Then anybody can just load the strip into knobman and create their own shadow as they like it 😉 Knobman has supported loading strips for a few weeks now and i have tested it extensively to make sure its OK 😉
Personally i never render with a groundplane hidden or not that way the shadow can be created after to match the surroundings
NAS
Acrobat ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: Just do the knobs without shadow fullstop Then anybody can just load the strip into knobman and create their own shadow as they like it 😉 Knobman has supported loading strips for a few weeks now and i have tested it extensively to make sure its OK 😉
Personally i never render with a groundplane hidden or not that way the shadow can be created after to match the surroundings
NAS
but its cool what you guys did, some of your shadows are moving coherently with the knob, that's really pro! (the 303) 😀
Nu Audio Science ·
The shadows created by Knboman would be moving with the image too ? I dont see what you mean ?
The shadows in Knobman are created by the alpha so they would match the knobstrip animation perfectly and actually would give you much more control
This is similar to a method now used in CGI that is basically the standard way of working when rendering Nowadays you dont try and get you reflections and shadows and stuff all perfect when rendering otherwise you have to keep rerendering each time something isnt right and with renders times that can be weeks per frame that would be a little silly hahahaha
Basically what you do nowadays is to set up the render so it looks there or there abouts very quickly then you render it out and save render passes These passes iunclude things such as occlusion/specularity/shadows/reflection so on and so on and so on These all render out in pretty much the same time as a single full rendered image because the render engine has to do these passes whichever way you do it
Then you use a compositor that will in near realtime allow you to combine all these passes and have as much if not more control than you would of in your 3D package to get the exact look you want 😉
So what i'm suggesting is a very basic version of doing render passes 🙂 Render one time without shadows and then use a realtime compositor (Knobman) to add in an lighting and shadowing to get it to fit in a particular plugin
Its the best way to post knobs for others to use because they retain full control of how it fits in there GUI
NAS
Hlis93 ·
I am going to try out all your suggestions. Much work to do this evening many experiments to try.
What I was trying to saying above is that in the past I have done everything in Photoshop and used Knobman to stitch everything and rotated the proper layers. Most of the time knobs and stuff are fairly basic and don’t require that they really have turn shadows so I just left the shadows out and added the shadowing to the skin. This has worked very well for me and I can control transparency, angle etc of the shadow that I have with Photoshop.
My interest in the 3D is to get accurate shadowing which I never really felt is the case in knobman (but that is a matter of preference and to some degree all that is a bit irrelevant since the pixel size is small). I am happy with what I am getting so far and I understand that my work is still the most primitive of novice work.
But before I go let me ask one last question. I know what it is that I want for myself so there is not much to think about there, but since most of the work that I have done and the work that I will do will be posted to my website for everyone to take and use as they will.
1. What would you like to see in the file? I have the feeling the way that I have it now is not that useful for you guys and gals since there will needs to be a degree of customization if you used them (as you are also very skilled yourselves more so then myself).
2. Is the current way that I have them uploaded a good format for those that don’t want to do customization and just simply need some panel elements (I will be adding more then just knobs so that one can have a cohesive and uniform appearance in their GUI).
These last two question could also be useful for that that want to upload simular things.
Nu Audio Science ·
Well take no notice of me at all then dude because i would never use somebody elses designs so i can't really answer either of your questions sorry
Personally i wouldnt use 3D for knobs or GUIs because i dont think the time spent for the results achievable are of zny use at al in a GUI that is so small as a VST plugin usually is That being said if i were trying to design something that replicated hardwares look exactly then i might do it in 3D but to be honest i find 3D designed GUIs to be cumbersome and unruly
I think the look of Photoshop work on VST GUIs is very easy on the yes and although it may not have the immediate value of wow look at that it is in daily use much easier on the eye The problem is is that the wow look at that factor of a GUI will in fact make it sell more if commercial and in effect (This is how the average human mind works) will make the VST sound better
I know that is a silly sentiment to anybody desiging visual content but the reality is is that to a user its the whole package that makes up the sound I dont understand it to this day but i have seen it many many times
NAS
Hlis93 ·
I hear what you are saying and I understand it. I figured that people with your ability will not be using anything that I do as you will be customizing your GUI from the ground up as I would.
It’s mostly for those that are not going to make this investment or for those that just don’t have an interest in doing that but do want to have something on the GUI that looks cool.
Here’s my take on it. When I purchased SM back in the 0.9 days it was in hopes of making plug-ins that I could sell and make a few cents here then there. I have pretty much abandoned that notion and want the liberty of doing whatever I want so it all free. With that idea in mind I don’t really care about the “WOW” factor myself. Its there if someone wants it if don’t …well then they don’t. It should be useful to new comers at the very least.
OK sounds like I’m miffed, I am not, is all cool. What does get on my nerves (and I see this only with SM plugs) is there are several styles of knobs that don’t mesh well and it looks stupid when ‘mixed n’ matched’ regardless of how cool it may sound. I admit I want the sound first I make music after all, but I can’t stand a non-coherent GUI, its distracting especially when there is money involved, leave it plain-Jane then. By doing what I enjoy most about plug-in development (although not an essential part of it) I hope that I can shortcut some of the end work for those that don’t really want to get involved in all this photoshop & knobman stuff etc. Everyone has strengths and weakness; mine is making really good instruments.
So in the end there will be a bunch of stuff there that anyone can use if they want. Some of it is just knobman, most of it is png’s stitched in knobman and now I will be adding the 3D stuff as I get a better handle on it.
Trust me I see the lack of interest in it from the amount of downloads but that’s all cool with me, I am learning doing something I never thought I could do so it’s all good with me. 🙂
Nu Audio Science ·
Just for reference thats our latest and the GUI isn't finished yet i still need to do the bevels around the displays and stuff right But that is PS and Knobman all the way and i dont think it looks bad 😉
NAS
Hlis93 ·
No it doesn't look bad, Very nice.
Is that acutal size? If so it perfect!
Nu Audio Science ·
Yeah thats just a 1:1 screen grab 😉
NAS
Acrobat ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: Just for reference thats our latest and the GUI isn't finished yet i still need to do the bevels around the displays and stuff right But that is PS and Knobman all the way and i dont think it looks bad 😉
NAS
really cool look, NAS, I'd just lowered the pen for envelopes, theyr VERY FAT! But I guess it's style anyway - and R.Type is one of my favorite shoot'em up ever... 😉
Neptune ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: ... i dont think it looks bad 😉 NAS
Man, this looks really good.
I agree with Acrobat, that Env Curve pen is a bit too fat.
Any chance to hear a preview of the sound?
Acrobat ·
@ NAS What makes the difference between "Analogue" and "Digital" envelopes? I guess it's the smoother algo behind it..?
Nu Audio Science ·
Nu Audio Science ·
Forum Silliness
Nu Audio Science ·
Forum Silliness
Nu Audio Science ·
tried to post an image to show what it does Forum is sh*t
NAS
Hlis93 ·
That cool!
Acrobat ·
wow you got me with that animation, eh eh
what software do u use to grab the PC screen? I need it too..
Osseous ·
NAS, how the hell did you do that anim for your digital/analogue thing?
I remember reading somewhere that you could capture images of specific modules, was that the method you used?
It looks very nice BTW.
Nu Audio Science ·
No its much simpler than that Osseous In reality once you work it out its very basic hahaha I worked it out for something else entirely and then reused it here
Basically what happened was everything on the GUI was kinda slick That is except the digi/ana envelope change it just didnt make sense going from a display to dials Being an interface designer i decided it wasnt good enough so something had to be done and that was it I know it may be a gimmick but it does actually set the whole design off really well lol
NAS
Nu Audio Science ·
Oh i should add Remember when i said Knobman was good enough for GUIs no 3D needed Well thats another example of Knobman doing its thing 😉
NAS
Osseous ·
oh, your just being a tease 🙁
i think i can understand how you did it in knobman (maybe), just mucking about with it for the first time tonight.
Hlis93 ·
OK since I can’t seem to leave any good challenge alone I took NAS comments concerning knobman and put it to the test to the best of my abilities. The two knobman panel elements took about 35 min to do, the 3D one about 11 hours and counting. I guess to a degree I only prove NAS correct 🙂
but there seems to be a little something more to the 3D stuff for me at least. In the end to each there own method of satisfaction I guess 😉
http://www.box.net/shared/b5xe38igc4
Hlis93 ·
I couldn't sleep so I tried yet again 1) to improve the knobs and 2) compare file size
Heres the results
in the first set the 3D knob is much more convincing and the file size is smaller
in the second set the knob from knobman is more convincing but and the file size is considerably smaller.
***I used one custome texture for both knobs***
so I guess what it comes down to is this: Panel elements increase file size to keep this down the ones with the smallest file size win. In this case, however, I was lucky that the knobs I prefer are the ones that look the best.
aliasant ·
Nice work Hlis
It is easy to see that the 3D rendered looks a lot smoother.
But this is something that could be fixed on the Knobman knobs. Render them at higher framesizes.
If you used 80x80 try 320x320 instead. Then open the png strip in PS and blur it just a little. Then size down 25% or to what ever size you need. Should make it much better.
Hlis93 ·
This was just for testing purposes. I didn't want to have to do all the resizing in PS. Normally I do it at 200x200px and then resize. As you are saying.
But this brings up a problem with the knobman exports that I didn't have with any of the 3D exports. One of the major problems I have had with knobman was that resize would tend to get messy there would end up being all sort of 'artifacts' (perhaps the wrong word I am not exactly upon the lingo) that made it look incorrect and I have wasted hours trying to eliminate and correct that. I was expecting this problem with the 3D renders but I had no problems what so ever it was a relief.
of course the experiment is fine, but the second set of knobs file size would change if I were to use them as I would not keep that screw thing, I would see a PNG files for that since I can control its appearance a great deal more...so its file size would increase.
Also, what sort of Blur filter would you suggest I never considered that? Normally I would place several layer upon each other or break the layer down from knobman and then do my editing in PS.
aliasant ·
About the blur filter. Well. To be honest.... I think I would try the Gaussian one first. But the others might do it to. Dont have PS here in XP so I cant open it up and check for names... but there is one used to simulate different lenses. Might be a fun one.
The problem with resizing might be the algo you use to do the resize. There is one that is better for down sizing and another for up sizing + some others.
It is also easy to screw things up if you dont make sure your new frame-size is still in "integers" The pixels that is. 40 x 40 and not 40.329 x 40.329
But the resizing is tricky. I too often get problems doing this. Best is of course if you can get the correct size dire3ctly from the render but since Knobman is so bad at that it isnt an option.
Have never tried to break a knobman thing up like that. Sounds interesting but also like a lot of work.
Andrew J ·
In knobman, I prefer to always render to the target size. If there's any object that looks a little off, I tweak the "diffuse" parameter to blur it. Looks to me like you haven't used that yet...
Another thing, if you're doing large knobs and want to lower the size of the pngs a bit, try loading them into IrfanView and use the excellent PNGOUT plugin to optimise the file (you have to download the plugin in a separate package). For example, I compressed one oversized knobstrip from 1.45 Mb down to 1.00 Mb (AFAIAC that's too big to use, but it shows what PNGOUT can do).
-Andrew
Hlis93 ·
I used defuse a great deal in the above knobs, its the reason they look the way they do.
I will try out your suggestion on pngout.
Andrew J ·
Sorry Jonathan 😊
I'm surprised at how clunky it looks if you've used diffuse. For some reason I don't seem to have that problem. A quick example...
Maybe it's because you're using some textures?
One trick you could try is fitting a line or an unfilled circle over the problematic edge, adjusting the width and then blurring it with diffuse.
-Andrew
Hlis93 ·
I played with textures underneath a top layer with difusse and alpha level mostly modifying the strenght of embossing, density etc.
Heres the knobmanfiles for the second experiment. The texture will have to be loaded into the texture file and then loaded into the layer that are marked 'custom tex' if it doesn't do it automatically.
http://www.box.net/shared/leyy7uo000
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