Audio crossover after Windows Audio Mixer

Nu Audio Science · 10 Mar 2008

1 Use a VST host that isnt Winamp 2 Use a VST MP3 instead of Winamp 3 Place your SM VST after the MP3 VST 4 Use ASIO for the driver for the soundcard 5 Multiple soundcards are not supported VIA ASIO unless you use ASIO4All and it crashs something silly in multi card mode/Or your cards are designed specifically to run together

Hope that helped

NAS

steph_tsf · 11 Mar 2008

Hi smaniac,

1 : Use a VST host that isnt Winamp -> I found VSTHost from Hermann Seib here : http://www.hermannseib.com/english/default.htm It runs nicely but one MUST go into "Peripheriques" / "Wave" menu and select MAYA 44 USB otherwise there is no output.

2 : Use a VST MP3 instead of Winamp -> I found VSTmp3play2 from Askywhale here : http://www.askywhale.com/vst/#MP3PLAY That player is fine, but very basic, no drag&drop capabilities, no library capabilities. Quite tricky is the little button on the left side, this is the only way to load a MP3 file in it. Can you advise a more sophisticated VST MP3 player ?

3 : Place your SM VST after the MP3 VST -> This is an quick and dirty experimental Code Module using optimized RBJ IIR filter for State Variable Filter with four outputs together : low pass, bandpass, high pass, notch. Saved as VST. Coefficients still must be calculated by hand using some "green" maths from RBJ paper (the one with the full set of 6 coefficeints) based on the the omega and alpha formulas derived from normalized frequency and "Q" factor. Nothing weird here. In this implementation, the resonating cell is put and processed at the beginning, attached to the 3 denominator coefficients d0,d1,d2 and the two delay cells are then reused for the low pass, bandpass, high pass, notch combiners, and they all have their 3 numerator coefficients too. This way we only calculate the denominator once and we reuse the delay cells. The delay cell labelled z0 is the virtual median point between the resonating network and the output combiner network.

4 : Use ASIO for the driver for the soundcard -> I have used MAYA-44 USB with USB v2.811 driver to be downloaded here : http://download.audiotrak.net/?w=at&p=13&g=2&l=en

5 : Multiple soundcards are not supported VIA ASIO unless you use ASIO4All and it crashs something silly in multi card mode/Or your cards are designed specifically to run together -> Can you advise some audio cards that can run together without crashing ?

6 : BTW, during my searches, I found an extremely valuable stand-alone program called VST Plugin Analyser from Christian-W. Budde here : http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/?page_id=5 It gives the distorsion and frequency response for various outputs, from there I can see if my outputs have the required amplitude curves. It also gives the number of CPU clocks used to process one second of audio.

7 : This structure does generate an intermittent white noise, about 1 second white noise every 10 second. I am using SynthMaker in trial (28 days left), so is this the noise that is specific to the trial version generating VST plugsin ?

8 : Is it possible to attach a SynthMaker schematic or a vst .dll file when making a post here ?

Thanks, smaniac, for the great help provided. I did in two days, what was planned to take one week !

Just feeling a little bit sorry that Winamp is a kind of dead-end, not able to cope with channel extensions, same for the Windows Mixing Console of WinXP, now I understand the great interest of ASIO and VST, really putting a second sound system on the WinXP computer. Is it conceivable to attach a software hack at the end of the Windows Mixing Console, a kind of bridge to the VST - ASIO world ? One should ask Hermann Seib maybe, the one that did the VST bridge for Winamp, or Christian-W. Budde, the one that did the ASIO output for Winamp. Or both of them. Here, what would be required, is to have a VST bridge after Windows Mixing Console, enabling ASIO output.

Again, thanks !

steph_tsf · 11 Mar 2008

For your info,

this is a copy of the email I just sent to :

Hermann Seib, author of : VST host

Askywhale, author of : VSTmp3play2

Christian-W. Budde, author of : VST Plugin Analyser, VST Host Winamp Bridge, ASIO Winamp Output

I think there is a potential win-win relationship.

1) SynthMaker would become a nice tool not only for the "audio production - music" , entering into the vast "audio" market. 2) Many VST effect plugins could find a new life when used in the vast "Audio" market. 3) Such "VST plugin after Windows Mixer" would become standard in every serious audio setup based on a PC. Home hi-Fi, car hi-fi, ... Better think in terms of millions of copies. Magazines will be allowed to cover a big event : "Windows Sound System now benefiting from the vast VST expertize and development tools". Why has Microsoft noy yet implemented this ? VST proprietary format, royalties due to Steinberg ?

Here is the copy of the email I just sent to the three parties :

Hello,

Maybe you know SynthMaker and the ability to save a design as VST plugin. I made a post here Audio crossover after Windows Audio Mixer It is about adding a VST output after the Windows Mixer. This way, any VST effect plugin could connect at the end of the standard Windows Audio chain. Like for instance, a VST effect plugin in the form of a stereo crossover outputting on ASIO using MAYA-44, then you have the PC acting both as music source (say Winamp) and as 2-way stereo crossover. From there, many extensions are possible like a VST effect plugin acting as stereo 3-way crossover, outputting in ASIO, to a 6-channel audio out board (don’t know if such board does exist yet – not sure the 5.1 ones can be used).

Do you think it is feasible ? I think this would be very interesting especially if in the future, we can get cheap 6-way audio outputs (on USB or Firewire) driven by ASIO. All « Audio Freaks » will want to test that – and maybe use that on a daily base.

There is maybe a market for this …

Look, there is already a big market, if allowing the standard Windows Audio chain to benefit from the vast & already existing VST effets like equalizers, multiband compressors, room simulators, audio enhancements, and so on. At the moment this can be done using Winamp and the Winamp VST bridge, but with the new approach, if it is done at the end the standard Windows Audio chain, you get the effects whatever the source. It can be Winamp, iTunes, or any player.

Any good idea welcome !

Regards, Steph

steph_tsf · 11 Mar 2008

Hello,

Microsoft is now delivering some info about writing a WDM audio driver.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms790360.aspx

I don't know if this info is useful for writing a piece of software that is intercepting the final audio mixer output and sending it to a VST plugin.

Steph

TomC · 11 Mar 2008

steph_tsf wrote: Hello,

Microsoft is now delivering some info about writing a WDM audio driver.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms790360.aspx

I don't know if this info is useful for writing a piece of software that is intercepting the final audio mixer output and sending it to a VST plugin.

Steph

Stop searching, it's a waste of time. Going the way you'd like is kinda hack and probably won't work in the future. Listen to NAS:

- audio card with ASIO drivers - VST host (or your own .exe) that supports ASIO.

That's all.

Tom

sunsynth · 11 Mar 2008

Exactly Tom!

I use 16 IN's and 10(16) OUT's now and it works great!

If you have a Soundcard with DSP-Routing you are ready 2 go!

SUNsynth

steph_tsf · 11 Mar 2008

Hi Tom, hi SUNsynth

I have done more than just listening to NAS. I have followed all his precious recommendations, hooking what he is advising the way he is advising, and yes, without any doubt, he is right, I agree this setup is working.

But, don't you see my point ?

I feel that SynthMaker could benefit from VST-ing the output of the WDM Windows Sound Mixer. This would be something better than just another hack. This would be a major advance for audio freaks wanting to get access to numerous VST plugsin, not within the quite constraining environment of Cubase, not within the quite poor environment of a thin VST Host, and not just relying on Winamp capability to load a VST plugin.

Here what I am targeting is to get all sounds, it doesn't mean what application is generating the sounds, to be processed by a VST-chain just before leaving the PC, with provision, of course, for multichannel ASIO out.

This is the ONLY way :

- to build digital crossovers - to build self-equalizing audio system - to build prime-quality room correction - to build prime quality room simulation and reverb - to build noise canceling systems like in car audio - to build sophisticated audio compressors and audio enhancers

that simply attach to a PC. Full stop.

The real answer is SynthMaker, but only if it can take VST out of the trench it is currently sitting, which, I'm afraid to say this, is pro-audio.

With SynthMaker, now we suddently need VST for the consumer market, able to deal with any audio that gets produced by the PC. We need to process sound from all possible PC applications like Winamp, Windows Media Player, iTunes, Power DVD, Power Cinema, SMPlayer, YouTube, ....

Do you see the picture now ? Quite a big picture, isn't ? Am I wrong ? Please tell me where you feel I might be wrong in my approach.

Steph

Nu Audio Science · 11 Mar 2008

Dude there are so many hosts other than Cubase or a thin host If you want to play MP3 through VST plugins my suggestion is DJDecks I've been a DJ for some twenty years or so and i can't recommend this amazing app higher 😉

NAS

MyCo · 11 Mar 2008

You'll never see VST integrated in Windows, because of 2 reasons: Microsoft has its own plugin system based on DirectSound... Vista has a build in effect system extention called sAPOs, that does exactly what you describe, but it's only for driver developers... in Vista you can only install digitally signed and verified drivers (WHQL), to get them signed you have to pay 500$ a year to MS! So you won't see a lot of this extensions

- to build digital crossovers - to build self-equalizing audio system - to build prime-quality room correction - to build prime quality room simulation and reverb - to build noise canceling systems like in car audio - to build sophisticated audio compressors and audio enhancers

Just use an audioplayer that allows VST effect sections... there are a lot, I'm shure

Christian-W. Budde,...

Hehehe... I've been working with him on an OpenSource project, he seems to be famous, his name is dropped everywhere 😈 But at the moment he has no time to do any VST stuff at all.

steph_tsf · 11 Mar 2008

Hi NAS,

DJDecks, woaw !

http://djdecks.be/ Now I get you. I just played a little bit with DJDecks, still in infancy today with version 0.86 released in Jan 2008, and woaw, I couldn't believe my eyes. Ergonomics are perfects. The surface controls, used as input and also as visual feedbacks when using some buttons, is a fantastic improvement. Many built-in possibilities, a very nice lmiter that shows you how much you are going too far, many little details are pushing that package to a very high quality level.

Then, came the second surprise. Sound is flawless, you may use all sorts of controls even at the extreme, you never get a ridiculous sound. Those guys definitely know what they do. I saw the possibility to have one external VST effects per desk. I have no idea about the seven cursors that are appearing over there, when selecting the VST plugin, maybe the possibility to control the VST plugin without needing to display it ? How to chain VST plugsin over there ?

Is this software originating from Belgium ?

But ... wait a minute ... how to chain a VST plusgin after DJDecks ? Say I own a 4-channel output audio card like MAYA-44, and I have a nice VST .dll plugin made using SynthMaker, acting as a stereo 2-way crossover. DJDecks is delivering stereo output. How to route that stereo output to my nice VST plugin ? I went into DJDesk Menu/Options/In-Out and played with the settings. Obviously, DJDEsk is linking ASIO output 1 to the master output (the stereo loudspeakers), and ASIO output 2 to the stereo headphones. I see no room for a VST insert over there, that would take the ASIO output 1 and throw it into my VST plugin acting as a 2-way stereo crossover. "Streaming mode" is not about this. And over there, opening the ASIO control panel doesn't show any more possibilities.

Any help welcome !

Steph

Nu Audio Science · 12 Mar 2008

No in DJdecks you have VST per deck Also you may find it easier to understand if you install some other skins than the abismal default one Why that rubbish is still the default skin i will never know Try Dunks 1983 skin and all will become much clearer

NAS

steph_tsf · 12 Mar 2008

Hi NAS,

Now using dunks1983 skin in djDecks. As with the default skin, I see there is a VST function associated to each desk. Nothing new over there.

I am only using one desk, as I only want to play a MP3 with the possibility of inserting a VST plugin.

I think you don't get my point.

Listen, to make the things clear, I now have a VST plugin acting as a 4-band mono crossover. It is taking audio channel left (left only, not right), and it splits it in 4 different physical channels : sub, bass, medium, treble. I have MAYA-44 sound output, which is capable of outputting 4 audio channels if properly "persuaded". Now look what is happening if I load my VST in desk 1. djDesk is assuming that the outputs from desk 1 are still stereo, and not 4-channel as they are now. And djDesk is routing them to channels 1-2 of MAYA-44, according to the "output mode" combo in djDesk Menu/Options/In-Out. So I still have no audio coming out from MAYA-44 channels 3-4. I am losing my two upper channels.

The question remains in full : in djDesk, if you insert a VST in a desk, that is generating 4 channels, how to get those 4 channels out of MAYA-44 ?

It is "easy" to say one can use a VST in djDesk. But one should realize that djDesk is strictly limited to a 2-channel audio scheme, and that within djDesk, even using a VST that is splitting audio in 4 channels, well, djDesk cannot handle those extra-channels as it has a built-in stereo router only supporting stereo signals, you can see this through the "output mode" combo in djDesk Menu/Options/In-Out.

Any other idea ?

Cheers, Steph

steph_tsf · 12 Mar 2008

Hi MyCo,

You'll never see VST integrated in Windows, because of 2 reasons: Microsoft has its own plugin system based on DirectSound... Vista has a build in effect system extention called sAPOs, that does exactly what you describe, but it's only for driver developers... in Vista you can only install digitally signed and verified drivers (WHQL), to get them signed you have to pay 500$ a year to MS! So you won't see a lot of this extensions

I don't agree with you.

If Vista has a neat sAPO, to be used by driver developers, I see no objection in starting a Vista VST bridge development. That Vista VST bridge would hook on Vista sound system, at the output of the Vista Mixing Console. For the consumer, the end-user, the Vista VST bridge would be free when limited to 2-channel audio at the output, and would cost 9.95 usd using PayPal with an unlimited amount of channels at the output.

Say there is a market of only 1,000 sales per year for the multichannel-enabled version. It makes a gross turnover of 10,000 usd, more than the 500 usd WHQL annual certification cost.

I agree a crazy freak may be releasing a multichannel version later on, but that freak will have the same ambition to balance the cost of his WHQL certification, so he will be looking for some money too.

Currently, I know nothing about the WHQL certification. Say I am getting and paying the WHQL certification for 2008, but I don't pay the annual certification the next years. If somebody is downloading my Vista VST bridge, dating year 2008, against PayPal payment, will Vista prevent any installation after year 2009 ? Will the customer be warned, that he is downloading a driver that has lost the WHQL certification ? If this is not in place it will trigger a lot of complains. It calls for downloading a free trial version, then only paying if the current WHQL status is OK. But wait a minute, as an end-user, if I have many WHQL drivers in my Vista PC, they may be all OK in year 2008. But after a few years, some may losing their WHQL certification because the developer is gone, or because the developer has not paid the annual 500 usd to Microsoft. Will I suffer from that, as end-user ? Will my PC refuse to run those not-anymore WHQL certified drivers ?

Now a last question : how to implement the 2-channel output limitation in the free Vista VST bridge ? The 2-channel version is going to be more complicated than the unlimited one !

Steph

Nu Audio Science · 12 Mar 2008

Dude just load up XT Place an mp3 player like xtal in the modular view Load your vst after it and connect now route to the 4 outs Done

NAS

steph_tsf · 12 Mar 2008

Hi NAS,

Unfortunately, XTAL is not available anymore for downloading. The only clue I have is ver 0.0.3 dating back from year 2003, but no download link anymore.

Here : http://mp3.box.sk/newsread.php?newsid=6 ... p3+players

Sorry, I could't do the setup.

Steph

Nu Audio Science · 12 Mar 2008

http://www.irdbisa.com/gunshopsoft/xtal/index.htm

All i did was click on your link and then the link that leads to the site and the latest version is there ? Do you want to do this or do you want somebody else to do it for you ?

NAS

steph_tsf · 12 Mar 2008

Hi NAS,

Hey, now I understand, there are a few intermediate pages. http://www.irdbisa.com/gunshopsoft/ On that page one must click at the beginning of the third line : \Xtal Then we get routed to the actual page http://www.irdbisa.com/gunshopsoft/xtal/index.htm and there one must click the 10th line : xtal version 0.09 -> the download is now starting

Thanks a million for pointing me the intermediate page.

I have now completed the setup. It works like a charm, hosted by VSTHost. This Xtal player is indeed more user friendly than VST mp3play2 ! MAYA-44 is outputting four distinct channels, as my VST effect plugin commands, being a 4-channel frequency splitter (low, medium, high, notch).

The main question remains : when will Steinberg release an XP VST bridge ? This way, ANY audio coming from the PC, and not the very special VST audio coming from Cubase ot VSTHost, could benefit from the vast installed base of VST plugsin.

And could also benefit from many new VST plugsin, made with SynthMaker.

You see, now I can split audio in digital domain, any sort of filter, any sort algorithm (that is one of my old deams - just completed - thanks), but currently, I am still unable to demonstrate this when Power DVD is the source, when iTunes is the source, when YouTube is the source, and so on.

Well, surely that is the beginning of something. I'll try to get some statements from Steinberg France next week about the diffuse possibility of developing a XP VST Bridge with their cooperation. Let's hope they are not against that idea. I must explain to them that, having such XP VST Bridge, it will have as effect (not an audio effect, but a marketing effect) that VST will enter high-end audio. Then, later on, when there will be cheap and miniaturized hardware able to load and execute a VST dll (say a 10x10cm miniaturized PC or even more compact, a compiled FPGA), VST will enter consumer markets like car audio and quality active multiway speakers.

Is there a market for fine audio gear carrying a sticker "powered by Steinberg" or "VST inside" ? Will Steinberg approve this ? Maybe this should be done using a different name ? Any opinion welcome.

Again, thanks Steph

TomC · 12 Mar 2008

steph_tsf wrote: The main question remains : when will Steinberg release an XP VST bridge ? This way, ANY audio coming from the PC, and not the very special VST audio coming from Cubase ot VSTHost, could benefit from the vast installed base of VST plugsin.

What is Steinberg dealing with (mosty)?

Right, VST host applications.

So why on earth should they be interested to add VST hosting to an operating system?

Additionally they have still to do a lot of homework with their existing software anyway.

Tom

steph_tsf · 12 Mar 2008

Hi TomC,

What is Steinberg dealing with (mostly)? Right, VST host applications. So why on earth should they be interested to add VST hosting to an operating system?

Firstly, because there are going to be different VST hosts running on different platforms in the future : x86, ARM, DSP, FPGA. There is value in standardizing and capitalizing using the "powered by Steinberg" and "VST inside" sticker. The XP VST Bridge is the early trigger needed for such deployment. One must bear in mind that a VST effect is needing a host, so the XP VST Bridge can be considered as a host in the form of an insert that plugs somewhere at the end of the Windows Audio System, just before the audio DACs, with provision for routing the final audio to alternate audio DACs, multichannels. Secondly, because with such early deployment, there will be a way to deliver fine-tuned hardware hosts, PC-based, not using exotic hardware, not using exotic operating systems, to an already existing market of non-specialized demanding customers wanting high-end audio, high-end car audio, high-end sound reinforcement. It is the marketing scheme of a new technology identified by a sticker, hence appealing, best to serve an existing demand, best to serve an existing market. Please react if you see objections in all this.

Additionally they (Steinberg) have still to do a lot of homework with their existing software anyway.

Interesting point. Can you develop using some hierarchy : what software, the annoyances to be solved, the naughty details, the candid wishes ... and some ranking when compared to competition ?

This is going to be interesting, hope you'll take the time to make some statements here.

Steph

Nu Audio Science · 13 Mar 2008

Basically dude without trying to sound disrespectful you are deluding yourself wildly VST is a dead format already and in no way will it be getting an ARM DSP or FPGA version in our lifetime

Newer open formats are on the horizon and VST doesn't really have a hope if the succeed

NAS

steph_tsf · 13 Mar 2008

Hi NAS,

Newer open formats are on the horizon

Can you explain ?

TomC · 13 Mar 2008

steph_tsf wrote: One must bear in mind that a VST effect is needing a host, so the XP VST Bridge can be considered as a host in the form of an insert that plugs somewhere at the end of the Windows Audio System, just before the audio DACs, with provision for routing the final audio to alternate audio DACs, multichannels.

• Steinberg lives from selling VST host applications. • Steinberg helps to make every single Windows[TM] installation a VST host. • Steinberg won't sell any host applications anymore. Even when you assume there were VERY dump people over at Steinberg they'll be not THAT dumb

Additionally they (Steinberg) have still to do a lot of homework with their existing software anyway.

Interesting point. Can you develop using some hierarchy : what software, the annoyances to be solved, the naughty details, the candid wishes ... and some ranking when compared to competition ?

This is going to be interesting, hope you'll take the time to make some statements here.

Steph

Just do a search for the word 'Issue' in the subject title over at the Cubase forum.

Tom

steph_tsf · 13 Mar 2008

Hi TomC,

Be careful what you write.

1. You did that assumption about me making assumptions. You are wrong. 2. You, pointing the Steinberg Knowledge Base and extracting all "issue" term occurences, makes you looking negative-biased.

Can you provide specific info, specific user feedback ?

Sorry, as I don't want any misunderstanding developing here, I must point this. Hope you understand.

Steph

TomC · 13 Mar 2008

steph_tsf wrote: Hi TomC,

Be careful what you write.

I'm always careful with what I write. Be careful what you interpret!

1. You did that assumption about me making assumptions. You are wrong.

'Even when you assume there...' was meant in a general way, not addressed in your direction. This usage of 'You' is very common, even in British english. 'Even when one assumes' would have been probably more clear.

2. You, pointing the Steinberg Knowledge Base and extracting all "issue" term occurences, makes you looking negative-biased.

Can you provide specific info, specific user feedback ?

Sorry, as I don't want any misunderstanding developing here, I must point this. Hope you understand.

Steph

I won't write a quite lengthy list of issues Cubase still has, but a very annoying one is that a lot of people need(ed) to install in on a freshly installed Windows system. I own a dedicated DAW system and needed the better half of a weekend to restore all my plug-ins/tools/whatnot, so you get an idea what other users went through. That's not acceptable.

And yes, I AM negative biased, because I payed a lot of money for all my Cubase licenses. Users of illegal copies may see this different, tho.

Tom

steph_tsf · 16 Mar 2008

Hi TomC,

Many thanks for taking the time writing those precisions ! Communication at distance is never easy, indeed.

Yes, Steinberg is quite demanding about the PC in general. I feel that their orientation is a heritage from the past, transforming the WinXP or Vista PC into a "audio dedicated platform". They want the full control of the PC, forgetting somewhere that the PC has now evolved as swiss-knive, with lots of different (competing ?) applications running on it.

This may explain why they have not developed a WinXP or Vista VST bridge.

A cultural point, maybe ? Again, thanks.

Steph

engineer · 25 May 2013

Interesting proposals, to estimate DSPs and FPGAs overcoming the VST staff. Well it came a bit different. The point is cost. The big parts of the users do not invest much money into their music gear so cheap plugins rule the world.

The next point is quality: In times where most people run music through mp3 and ipad using cheap ear phones, there is low demand for better quality. Look at the history of the SACD.

Summarizing these points, there will be hardly a demand for better audio processors in the future, even not with sound generation. Especially FPGAs require a high demand of quality to become effective. Apart from things like complex VA-modeling, DSPs can do that too and are cheaper. Nowadays 64Bit CPUs in the PCs have the power to already reach simple DSP-core platforms and so do GPU based systems.

MegaHurtz · 25 May 2013

The stability issue has been there for about a decade now, looking at the controverse about 32bits DAC's and groundplates thinking one day it might- but not yet has been solved. Even ultrasensetive HF radio analysers use the same ADC's.

MegaHurtz · 25 May 2013

Not that that actually changes the VST bridge, but that's what you get for not reading the topic 🙂 Would be nice to have a portable VST bridge. DSP market seems to move to user friendlyness 4yrs later. In that specific case there is a whole lot that can be discarded, even must be discarded to fit a reduced instruction set. But a sepperate OS would be nice.