From the original SynthMaker forum (2004–2014), with its members’ names and dates.
chironex ·
Does anyone know where I can find more waveforms that can be loaded as arrays or txts for SM? I know there's that one library in the wiki, but those sounds hardly seem like they'd come in handy...I need something like Absynth's waveform collection. Where could I find that?
...thanks.
Acrobat ·
chironex wrote: Does anyone know where I can find more waveforms that can be loaded as arrays or txts for SM? I know there's that one library in the wiki, but those sounds hardly seem like they'd come in handy...I need something like Absynth's waveform collection. Where could I find that?
...thanks.
hi chironex, lets download Chackl's WaveSizer, he created an EXE you can use to build your own wavetables with ease and save as text files! That's a great tool, I'm building my own with it!! 🙂
A.
chironex ·
This is cool and all, but...
I need a real set of waveforms (Fourier expansion data would be fine, too) that has stuff the synth can't already make by itself. For example, Absynth;s library has the basics, like Sine, Triangle, Saw, etc., but it also has stuff like Organ waveforms, Vox, Woodwinds, additive stuff, inhermonic stuff, types of noises, chords, Analog stuff, etc., etc. I need stuff like that.
infuzion ·
wave player + .WAV you find on the internet, cover DVDs from UK mags, etc.
chironex ·
Some guy over at KVR mentioned single-cycle WAVs. Would you know how to find these??
infuzion ·
You can make one: it usually means the wave is like 256-5000 (whatever) samples long. When it is that short, I prefer to use the wavetable; pitches better IMHO.
But most of the sounds you want (esp voices & chords) are very complex, & will take more than an simple OSC if you really want to re-create. Organs are just sine waves with lots of extra harmonics, but again take more than just a tiny single simple waveform IMHO.
chironex ·
...which is why I'll want to download them off the internet. And I'd convert them to a wavetable first.
Tom7777 ·
As said before it's best to make them yourself, if your putting them in a synth you will be giving away etc as downloaded samples would no doubt have copyright issues im guessing. As infuzion said more is required to make the sounds usually and they maybe totaly different in absynth to SMs system in anycase, for SMs waveforms osc you will get the best results with using shapes and joining them etc with array maths modules or using a tool like Acrobat suggests, for real instrument sounds sampling your own is by far the best, absynth is quite advanced as a synth so they could be using compressed loops etc. In terms of the links other than the wiki there probably isn't many designed to load in SM at the moment, another thing absynth might do is actually synthesis each waveform with multiple oscs etc within the synth and then use them as a starting point but i don't know how it works and thats a guess. 🙂
Acrobat ·
Tom7777 wrote: you will get the best results with using shapes and joining them etc with array maths modules or using a tool like Acrobat suggests,
Yeah I think we can achieve quite complex waveforms with Chackl tool, it allows to sum up partials in some way, it just lacks .txt import to "resample" stuff... 🙂
Tom7777 ·
I usually make my own setups to build waveforms in SM if i need them, with the array maths theres all sorts of cool ways to morph the waveforms but if you don't want to make them yourself tools like that are a great help when making waveforms.
Acrobat ·
Tom7777 wrote: I usually make my own setups to build waveforms in SM if i need them, with the array maths theres all sorts of cool ways to morph the waveforms but if you don't want to make them yourself tools like that are a great help when making waveforms.
..but array operations are very slow, to my experience... no real time there... 🙁
Tom7777 ·
Yeah well i mean i make projects with certain controls to give me different results then just keep the osms in a project folder for other times if needed. No doubt similar stuff to what was done in the tool but my own unique version. Real time array work may need some work yeah. 🙂
Osseous ·
Chironex, why not try these --> http://www.novakill.com/zip/Wavetables.zip
free from the novakill website so should be no problem with copyright, although they do say they sampled them from the Kawai K4, whatever that is.
There are 836 wave files in the download. most of them are just single cycle waveforms of 256 samples long but there are also 8 which are sweep/morphs and are quite a bit longer. Not sure if that is what you are after. I've just been mucking about with them and although there is a lot of crap there are still a lot of really interesting waveforms in there.
Also, cause they are only 612bytes each, you could include the whole lot of them for the budget price of 507kb. I think i might use them on an interesting wee synth i'm having a go at making just now.
hope that helps
🙂
Oss
infuzion ·
Osseous wrote: free from the novakill website so should be no problem with copyright, although they do say they sampled them from the Kawai K4, whatever that is.
It is a basic wavetable playback synth, but with XY morphing between 4 user-selectable wt. It is good for morphing pads & short notes with unique attacks; I own a desk-top version of it.
Osseous ·
Ahhh. Thats what my wee synth is i'm working on just now. I got the idea from exonerates wavetable mod 1.1. It's nice having a ridiculously large supply of wavetables to put into the XY mod. 🙂
I got me some random functionality going on to load random wave files from the folder into the wave players, which then get converted to wavetables.
One thing i was curious about was the was exonerates wavetable mod 1.1 works. Everytime the XY pad values change the wavetable has to be created again. Would it be better to create 4 wavetables for the 4 morph sounds and then mod them in the XY after that rather than before?
Nu Audio Science ·
Single cycles are all copyright free to be honest They fall within the 1.6 second sample legislation
OK if you were to dump cycles from a synth and use those you are on very shakey ground because that isn't recording
NAS
Acrobat ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: Single cycles are all copyright free to be honest They fall within the 1.6 second sample legislation
OK if you were to dump cycles from a synth and use those you are on very shakey ground because that isn't recording
NAS
1.6 seconds? Never heard of this rule but sounds interesting..! 😮
Nu Audio Science ·
Yes samples of less than 1.6 seconds that contain no melody or driving influence to any given piece of music they where taken from are fully legal to use
It's a hazy situation to say the least made even worse when one of the major labels threatened to take a certain party to court for having used some samples from a major pop artist It turns out that said pop artists producers had used samples from a sample CD that where in fact made by the people they where trying to take to court and that they hadn't sampled the pop artist at all hahahahahah
Anyway from that day it seems unless you are going out of your way to completly base you compositions on another recording then you are fine There is no point labels getting involved
However like i said if you dump (Rip) wavetables out of another synth this is not recording and reuse but blatant stealing and would be against the law To this date i havent seen a company pursue a case but that isn't really the point
Having said all that if you are unable to find or create single cycle samples you really should spend a little time working on your technique It is one of the easiest things to achieve with even the cheapest wave editor and a collection of music and synths and in no way would you be infringing anyones rights
NAS
angstrom ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: Yes samples of less than 1.6 seconds that contain no melody or driving influence to any given piece of music they where taken from are fully legal to use
do you have an attribution for that? it sounds very much like an urban myth. I've certainly never heard of it before.
Acrobat ·
...it's so strange, for example at KVR, this winter, lots of people were asking for a Roland D-50 emulation and many came out with the usual saids that Roland is very jealous of his waves, but com'on D-50 had nearly 100 PCMs that are terribly common: bell, glocken, marimba, short hits that are very very very common even inside other machines, it's ridiculous to claim they are property of anyone...
Aside, their basic waves (saw, pulses) for linear vector synthesis are slightly distorted waves as well, very easy to recreate with any pro audio editor...
In short, instead of ripping them from the original machines, what a programmer must do is just reconstruct with a plain saw and apply a 20% drive on it, that's all... why do they claim to have "invented" anything? Are they Balthorizing? And even if someone wants to "break the law", I don't think they can demonstrate anyway that his waves are theirs.
Osseous ·
It would be impossible to prove if you just embedded your wavetables/pcm/wave files inside your synth wouldn't it? How could they extract them?
This is certainly a grey area for legislation i think. And i've never heard of that 1.6 second rule either. As far as i can remember from college, it's OK to take single hits from songs, anything more leaves you open to copyright liabilities but i think thats probably partly to do with the fact that it's very rare you actually hear a unique sound these days and a sample could have come from so many different places or actually been created by yourself.
Kinda of topic here, but if you listen to a song called Uranium from the Uranium EP by Radioactive Man, you'll hear a truly unique sound. It gets my synthesis juices flowing every time i hear it. 🙂
Oss
Nu Audio Science ·
OK fine i'm making it all up hahahahaha Never mind
I have been using samples a very very long time and i have actually been involved in a sample copyright case and a couple of other copyright legislations too But hey it must be an urban myth
NAS
angstrom ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: OK fine i'm making it all up hahahahaha Never mind
I have been using samples a very very long time and i have actually been involved in a sample copyright case and a couple of other copyright legislations too But hey it must be an urban myth
NAS
OK, weird response - but nevermind.
can you actually provide a link? because info like that isn't too much use on hearsay. As far as I know from my time working at EMI, Warner and VirginMusic any infringement is an infringement.
the Sixth Circuit has held that the de minimis defense is not available for the sampling of sound recordings because of their intrinsic value in saving the sampler time and costs in hiring musicians to perform the music however short.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement
Nu Audio Science ·
OK so you are gonna argue by showing something in Wikipedia Oh yes Wikipedia is just the pinnacle of honesty and factuality isn't it hahahahahahahaha Very funny
Dude i don't have to show any precedent for saying what i have said when i have been through a court preceding that did exactly what i said If you do'nt believe me that is your choice I don't care
NAS
angstrom ·
Frankly I don't.
You have a very odd and aggressive way of behaving, if you really had been through a process like this it would be easier for you to reply with a few simple facts, rather than some spurious claims of authority and an odd 'flying off the handle' response.
A simple answer would be: I was involved in a case a few years back, and our defense was upheld under European Copyright Law that our usage of 1.6 seconds was fair use, this is fair use policy is documented here and here.
I mean, do you really think that talking about how much of a big shot is more convincing than a simple reference?
I made a simple request for more information on an important topic, yet you acted like I just insulted your mother. That's just weird.
Q: can I enter Europe without a passport? A: yes, you can as long as you are there for less than 2 weeks Q: are you sure? that doesn't seem right to me, can you provide a link? A: I used to be the king of Europe and if you don't believe me then you are an IDIOT!"!! I KNOW!!!
hmmm
If you are going to make bald statements as facts, please at least make some attempt to back them up. Your insulting and bizarre behaviour does not advance your case any.
angstrom ·
Kevin S. Brady, Esq. Minneapolis, Minnesota Attorney at Law - Practicing in Intellectual Property and Technology Law
There are many misconceptions surrounding copyright and related technology and Internet law issues. It's often difficult to separate fact from fallacy. While it is not the goal of this article to provide a comprehensive discussion on this area of law, it is my hope that this article will help put to rest some of the common myths, fallacies and urban legends.
---- Myth #18: It's OK to sample a small piece of someone's sound recording, as such a small amount is sure to be fair use.
Fact: Unlike the case of musical compositions, there is no "de minimus" exception in the case of sound recordings. Thus, the taking of even a tiny snippet of a recording can be considered infringement. If you want to sample someone else's sound recording, obtain the proper permission (read: a license) first.
yep, sure sounds like an Urban Myth to me.
Nu Audio Science ·
Edited my reply cause there just isn't any point to this anymore Think what you want
NAS
Acrobat ·
Nu Audio Science wrote: Oh yes Wikipedia is just the pinnacle of honesty and factuality isn't it hahahahahahahaha Very funny
If you don't like WP, we here surely prefer to see a national legislation reference: obviously we all must refer to USA, Japan and UK laws since they're the biggest music markets for both music and samples.
Anyway, I don't want to enter the diatribe w/Angstrom, but having doubts about "Wikipedia" is quite the same root behaviour of having doubts about your "original statement", IMO.. so you're 1-1... 😉
angstrom ·
Just because something is on Wikipedia doesn't make invalid. the wikipedia article reference was a sourced item
This is not my unsubstantiated 'opinion', but a link to a defining case regarding the issue we are talking about - namely whether a sample shorter than 1.6 seconds is legal.
The wikipedia article talks about a defining judgement for 'short' samples of any length. [38] Bridgeport Music, Inc. v. Dimension Films 410 F.3d 792, 802 (6th Cir. 2005)
that the 'de minima' defence is not applicable to sampling.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ... ruled that the sampling was in violation of copyright law. Their argument was that with a sound recording, an owner of the copyright on a work had exclusive right to duplicate the work. Under this interpretation of the copyright law, usage of any section of a work, regardless of length, would be in violation of copyright unless the copyright owner gave permission. In its decision, the court wrote: "Get a license or do not sample. We do not see this as stifling creativity in any significant way." This decision effectively eliminates the de minimis doctrine for recorded music in the Sixth Circuit, and has affected industry practice.
If you would like a less readable, but more legal link you can try this http://fsnews.findlaw.com/cases/6th/04a0297p.html
or this PDF of the court ruling http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pd ... 43a-06.pdf
So, I recommend that nobody try the "some guy on the internet told me" copyright infringement defence.
Acrobat ·
thx AngS , now it leaves up to the question about single cycle waveforms...but they fall in the "regardless of length", I guess.
angstrom ·
Acrobat wrote: thx AngS , now it leaves up to the question about single cycle waveforms...but they fall in the "regardless of length", I guess.
yes, But I think that you may get away with it quite easily (!) depending on circumstance. EG: It would be a sharp ear indeed who could tell a roland sine wave from an Arp sinewave from a sinewave you cooked up yourself. I doubt very much there would be a court battle over an anonymous triangle wave. Even with those more complex waves such as those on the Casio CZ range, it would be tricky and pointless for Casio to pursue in court. I very much doubt that would happen.
But, when you start looking at things like PPG wavetables it might become a little more obvious ... and finally if you market your synth as the " V-PPG wavetableizer featuring PPG waveforms" then it's probably tempting fate if your synth ever begins to make money.
So I think it's actually worth making your own. I think that PPG (and Dave Smith) only used 256 length tables for their oscillators, so we can actually make much better ones in SM than they had access to. There are a wealth of tools on this forum to make interesting waves via green maths or additive harmonic tweaking, and then write them to the wavetable oscillator. I think it's probably worth spending a couple of days cooking up an OSM to generate some spectacular tables yourself rather than relying on some 20 year old implementation of a wavetable and hoping that some of the old magic will rub off.
Just my opinion 🙂
Osseous ·
Can you save an array inside a single index of another array for storing wavetables?
For example, say you have 50 wavetables, could you store the text data of values for a full wavetable (all 256, 512 or whatever of them) inside a single index in another array? That way you could have all of you wavetables stored inside one array.
exonerate ·
Osseous wrote: Can you save an array inside a single index of another array for storing wavetables?
For example, say you have 50 wavetables, could you store the text data of values for a full wavetable (all 256, 512 or whatever of them) inside a single index in another array? That way you could have all of you wavetables stored inside one array.
Yeah you can, if you have the wavetables in text components you can save each one to it's own index of a string array.
Osseous ·
So does that mean when you load wavetables from text files, you also have to load them into a text primitive first before passing them into an array module?
I can't seem to get wavetables to load from text files into SM any other way, unless i'm missing something obvious.
exonerate ·
Osseous wrote: So does that mean when you load wavetables from text files, you also have to load them into a text primitive first before passing them into an array module?
I can't seem to get wavetables to load from text files into SM any other way, unless i'm missing something obvious.
Yeah you need to use a string component, SM automatically converts to an array from the string component, it doesn't do it other wise.
Osseous ·
It seems to take a second or 2 longer to do it that way than to load directly from a wave and then convert it into an array of floats for use as a wavetable.
exonerate ·
Osseous wrote: It seems to take a second or 2 longer to do it that way than to load directly from a wave and then convert it into an array of floats for use as a wavetable.
Yeah the conversion to array can be pretty slow, especially with large arrays.
Using this Module should be much faster.
Cheers 😉
Exo
Osseous ·
Thanks exonerate, i'm using that now.
I think part of my problem was that i was taking in the text file, converting it to a wavetable, sending it to a graph function and out of the loader where they both converted it back to a float array before sending it out to the mod thing where the 4 different waves were combined and it got converted back to a wavetable again to be played. I didn't need most of that stuff, i just needed to keep it as a float array all the way through until the end when it gets played by the incoming midi notes from a wavetable primitive.
Sometimes, you can't see the wood for the trees. 🙂
I don't know how you guys come up with these little CPU saving things 😉
Cheers
Oss
p.s. I've been building a bunch of my own wavetables. Do you think using 2048 size tables is going a bit over the top? It's definitely slowing down the mod view for combining the 4 of them.
Osseous ·
Exonerate, one thing i noticed about your wavedraw mod 1.1 is that it is quite a lot faster than my version (despite the fact mine is pared down a lot), but it still has lag if the XY control for adjusting the balance between the 4 waves is done too quickly.
I was thinking of trying to pre-calc the full range of values for the arrays based on the XY mod position when a new one is loaded but realised that since it is floating point values which come out of the mod screen it would probably be impractical (take too long and use a lot of memory).
I was hoping it might be a nice control for users to adjust the synthesised sound but it doesn't look like that can happen now.
Can you think of any other way to speed things up?
I know the calcs are all being done using green data and not poly or mono but i'm hoping you might have an answer that can fix it. I guess i'm asking if there is any way to do calcs on float arrays (as is done in the combine modules in your example) at sample rate and not the rate that green data uses. 😉
infuzion ·
Osseous wrote: Exonerate, one thing i noticed about your wavedraw mod 1.1 is that it is quite a lot faster than my version (despite the fact mine is pared down a lot), but it still has lag if the XY control for adjusting the balance between the 4 waves is done too quickly.
{from earlier post this thread} Everytime the XY pad values change the wavetable has to be created again. Would it be better to create 4 wavetables for the 4 morph sounds and then mod them in the XY after that rather than before
You have to choose, green or stream: green: low CPU, unless you want constant fast updating (as in LFO), using green in automation usually if the changes are slow enough. stream: higher CPU, but better if you want fast updates (with LFO, envelopes, etc).
If you want a closer emulation of the K4 series & other morphing-sounds-with-a-LFO/OSC, then you'll need 4 OSCs then crossfade their audio-stream outputs.
exonerate ·
Osseous wrote: Can you think of any other way to speed things up?
I think putting a redraw limiter just before the trigger to the Wave Table should help and also I'd put a redraw limiter before the redraw component also.
I've noticed on mine I never did this, but with my wavetables being 256 points slow down is not as noticable. Morphing between wavetables of 2048 points will be sending a large amount of triggers, so using the redraw limiter should help.
Cheers 😉
Exo
Acrobat ·
Osseus, are you sure that modifying a float array for waveform purposes is a good idea? Me not - I think it can't work sufficiently fast - users might desire to make fast changes on the joystick, I'm sure all those moves can't be executed so fast, the solution is Infuzion's one: four different streams mixed with a XY control, there's the Oddson one.. far far simplier and it will not glitch or delay... even Korg WS works with simple linear volume changes, it doesn't involve waveforms neither in vectorization neither in sequences. SO the Prophet VS and I bet also the K4.
Osseous ·
I'd first planned to just mod the gain of 4 audio streams but i really liked the way that the wavetable mod 1.1 looks. i.e. the big picture of the amalgamated wavetable.
I realised that part of my problem with slowdown and jerkiness was with the graph redraw on the big wavetable. If you have waveforms with a lot of points (not simple like sine or saw etc) the table was having to recalc the gradient for the wave on the GUI element so i turned that off which helps a lot, but the mod isn't adjusting the wavetables at sample rate.
I couldn't figure out a way to get the same kind of display using the method you suggested acrobat, although i did try it. I could just display the waveform but that would only show up when a note is playing, at least that was the only way i could find to do it. Assuming i did do it that way i guess i'd have to make the max gain of each waveform 0.25 in case you get all 4 waves peaking at the same point and going outside of the maximum float values of 1.0 and -1.0 for audio streams?
Do any of you have any other suggestions for displaying the waveform to get the same sort of look as in the wavetable mod 1.1?
Thanks for your help guys.
Oss
Acrobat ·
Osseous wrote: Assuming i did do it that way i guess i'd have to make the max gain of each waveform 0.25 in case you get all 4 waves peaking at the same point and going outside of the maximum float values of 1.0 and -1.0 for audio streams?
yes, for the XY math: [old link]
Zephyr ·
Kinda of topic here, but if you listen to a song called Uranium from the Uranium EP by Radioactive Man, you'll hear a truly unique sound. It gets my synthesis juices flowing every time i hear it. 🙂
Oss
Wow is all I can truly say about this sound. I have Napster, so I can hear pretty much anything that I want to. I see what yoru saying about that sound. It's almost 3 dimentional in nature. How did he make that sound I wonder? It's a distorted grinding sound that is yet very pleasing to the ear. Good find Oss.
FarSide ·
Zephyr wrote: Kinda of topic here, but if you listen to a song called Uranium from the Uranium EP by Radioactive Man, you'll hear a truly unique sound. It gets my synthesis juices flowing every time i hear it. 🙂
Oss
Wow is all I can truly say about this sound. I have Napster, so I can hear pretty much anything that I want to. I see what yoru saying about that sound. It's almost 3 dimentional in nature. How did he make that sound I wonder? It's a distorted grinding sound that is yet very pleasing to the ear. Good find Oss.
I too, say Wow! I got the goose bumps when I heard it. From 1 minute and 17 seconds - is that the sound you mean? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF4segJkmd8 Perhaps he did it by sampling a wooden table being dragged a short distance across an (upstairs?) wooden floor (with loose items like CD cases on the table for a bit of extra top end interest ). Maybe the floor was lino covered? The pitch of the sound is the table legs vibrating as the table is dragged. A PZM mic placed on the wooden floor at close range might get the required bass. Ah sorry it's a bit off-topic
DownFlex ·
THIS IS A GREAT TOOL ! 😍
But how can i import this waveforms in a Multi OSC in SynthMaker ???
Jay ·
Hi DownFlex
Is it wavetables you are wanting to use? If so here is a little demo for you to play around with! click on the red wave to bring up the wave menu and select new waves and set the multiosc to Wavetable.
Hope this helps!
DownFlex ·
Yeah thanks !
CoreStyler ·
Exmple of my ultrasawII. Running on Dominus VSTi (already on dev). Consist on 7 sawthoot detuned for a period of..... 😍 http://soundcloud.com/thecorestylerz/ultrasaw
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