From the original SynthMaker forum (2004–2014), with its members’ names and dates.
oddson ·
I'm looking at spending a little money on my music hobby and I'm soliciting advice here (before trying KVR) as I know the personalities here and have some idea on how to weight opinions given what I know about you.
I think a mid-price sequencer and a decent sampler are the most likely purchases.
So here's my issue. I've tried the demo versions of Live and FL Studio and I have played around with the Reason Adapted that came with my sound card. I own Energy XT and use it despite some GUI issues because it's the easiest for me to understand (and it was cheap and I like supporting "the little guy" developer).
I find Live and FL to be incomprehensible... 😕 Is it just me? With most software I'm lost about some things but get others right away. With these two I don't really know where to start.
I'm contemplating buying the full version of Reason just because it's so easy to make decent sounding demo tracks and I love the sampler (and some of the other 'gear' too). The limitations on time signatures and tempo changes are the main 'against' point for spending the money on this -- even more than it not supporting VSTs. The piano-roll editor isn't perfect either but it's OK. I might be talked out of this purchase depending on the advice I get about the following:
Does anyone have any advice on sequencers?
Can anyone suggest a sampler VST with preset samples that rival/surpass the quality in Reason? I want basic instruments out-of-the-box as well the ability to do my own sampling.
Hope someone can help... 🙂
tuz ·
good thing you didn't go to kvr. the results would have been chaotic and the thread would get locked in the end. :p
this is a tough one. i've tried almost everything except reason. i started out with fl studio and every time i tried something new, i kept on going back to it. it's totally a matter of taste. imo, for its price, it's at a state where it's pretty solid and can't get much more for that kind of money. plus its piano roll is awesome. 🙂 i also have energy xt and i think they make a really good couple. xt covers what fl misses.
sorry i can't be of much help because i'm solely an fl studio user. but, i would say give it another chance maybe. if i can figure it out, anybody can. i'll be more than happy to try and help you along the way.
no matter what, you will choose what's best for you anyway.
as for a sampler, it's hard to say because you want it ready to go right out of the box. i know there are some great samplers out there, even free ones (high life) but they are not loaded with instruments. maybe try kontakt (kind of expensive) or directwave (cheaper solution, but can d/l free instrument packs from image line).
i hear a lot of people saying it's awesome, but never really tried it. i'm sure it's good, but i can't deal with its closedness.
hopefully someone with more experience can help you. 🙂
oddson ·
Thanks Tuz...
I should have said 'instead of going to KVR' rather than 'before' as I knew it would be a bad idea.
...you like the piano roll in FL?
I think it's the step sequencer that bugs me. It's like you're expected to want to go for that first... and the piano-roll is hidden. I still haven't figured out why I can sometimes expose the underlying sequencing and sometimes I can't.
I still don't now where audio tracks are in that thing... I hear them playing in the demo but I can't figure how/where to view them. The mixer doesn't seem to allow you to link to the sound source by clicking anywhere. There's no tool-tip help to speak of and the designers went out of their way not to label anything with words...
Plus... the windows don't even seem to update to show the current song position.
Then there's the demo music which I find irritating after a minute or two...
I tried to like it... but I can't get started.
On the plus side it's no more baffling to me than Live. 😉
gregh ·
It is worth trying Reaper
http://reaper.fm/index.php
it's great and ridiculously cheap- you can try it out for a long time as a fully featured demo. Stronger for audio compared to midi, but very rapid development cycle
other than that Podium is very good, but strange design that you might not get into (I didn't, but nonetheless I'd recommend a look)
oddson ·
Thanks Greg... there's two I didn't even know about.
maybe I should be more specific on what I want.
I not looking for cheap -
50 USD range is acceptable to me.
I want strong MIDI features - the more features the better. Are there any that you can drag a sequence of notes and they will keep their relative positions based on their relation in a specific diatonic scale rather than strict semitone distances? For that matter are there any that you can define key signatures to sections to flag non-diatonic notes? Are there any that have a lasso selector tool instead of bounding rectangles? Are there any that let you define overlapping repeat patterns within the same channel?
Time signature options - 13/8 , 9/4 etc. tempo changes.
I also prefer the horizontal track model that to me has been (should be) standard. EnergyXT has a good visual arrangement for me but the note editing tools are far too limited (I haven't checked out v2 yet).
What I'm not so big on... DJ features, predefined beats and assembling music out of pre-made bits and pieces.
I would also like to have access to something resembling 'standard' instruments from a sampler -- a pizzicato double-bass, some B3 sounds, a few pianos, some guitar options (I love the nylon sound in Reason's sampler).
I don't care too much about synth sounds... I can always build those.
gregh ·
hi oddson - the midi in Reaper is okay but I am not a major midi manipulator anyway so can't comment too much. Reaper has a programming language built in so a lot of users are starting to write plugins for it - that side of things will be substantially updated in version 2 and at that stage will make Reaper very hard to beat. But for the moment Cubase and Logic seem to be the packages people speak most highly of for midi manipulation.
Usine is another highly configurable package, to me it seems better than energyXT.
oh and i found Live really hard to get into, FL is a bit limited for the music I like to make.
You could always rewire Reason into something else and use it just for the sampler. To make your own sample instruments sfz is great as you can make an instrument up using a text editor. Other than that (and shortcircuit free) I have not come across a sampler worth getting for much less than Kontakt (which I will probably purchase this year)
oddson ·
thanks again for the input... I'll look into these
doug4350 ·
Hi oddson,
I u/g'ed to Sonar v3 Producer Edition a couple years ago. Since then, they're out with v6 now (although I'm still on v3). Somewhere between those versions, someone mentioned that the midi editing capabilities were kind of primitive and thought Cubase(?) was far superior midi-wise. I'm not sure where it stands today though. The feeling I got was that most packages are stronger in audio than midi. Sonar came with 3 cd's worth of samples, but they were crap. Then again, maybe I'm spoiled by my Kurzweils 🙂. I mainly used Sonar to fix up www midifiles for my Kurz's. It did what I needed. What I did like was the ability to record and playback both midi and audio at the same time. That took some creative mixing to get working.
I don't know if you'll be able to find a package that has everything you want.
- Edit
But may end up with more than one.
-
I remember Sibelius 3 was pretty decent in handling variable time signatures and outstanding for printing scores and arrangements (if by chance you're looking for that too). But midi editing was kind of clumsy.
If anything, I think I may have convinced you where not to spend too much time on 😀 .
Aloha,
Doug
oddson ·
Thanks Doug... I know I won't get everything I want.
One more point of clarification. I'm not interested in traditional notation features. I think the staff is anachronistic and counter-intuitive. But mostly I just never mastered it. I find piano-roll to be the best interface for pitch but beat and bar options would be nice to have as would features that mark scales and keys (rather than just black and white notes) -- but I've never seen any program that has anything like what I'm thinking should be possible.
In short... I looking for composition aides for music that doesn't rely on drum loops and simple repeating structures.
doug4350 ·
Hi oddson,
I think the staff is anachronistic and counter-intuitive.
Kind of ironic, I am piano roll challenged. I prefer the staff view 🙂. Once, way back when I was in a non-related band in the USAF, the drummer *oops* I mean percussionist as he likes to be called, auditioned and made it in to the USAF band. He told me that he referred me too, as I was considering auditioning too, and told them that if a fly crapped on a score, I would play it 😀 . The good 'ole days and the good 'ole guys 🙂.
I think part of the problem may be too many programmers with no (or little) music background working on music software.
In short... I looking for composition aides for music that doesn't rely on drum loops and simple repeating structures.
Some of the classical pieces I've worked in off of www are not too shabby there. You can tell some elbow grease went into those arrangements, but unfortunately there's no background without reverting to midi-forensics 🙂 Then again, I haven't seen features for what you're looking for with marking scales, beat and bar, etc. They even get the key incorrect a lot of the time, which is kind of irritating (i.e. it should be A# and not Bb). If the author has taken the time to properly handle a tempo change that's a plus too. Otherwise, it's a little awkward and choppy.
Aloha,
Doug
GaryG ·
To save your time I'd recommend avoiding Tracktion. I personally love it but the midi editing is nowhere near where you want to be. Shame because the tempo/time signature track in the new v3 could be right up your street.
Are there any that you can drag a sequence of notes and they will keep their relative positions based on their relation in a specific diatonic scale rather than strict semitone distances?
as would features that mark scales and keys (rather than just black and white notes)
never seen an editor with those features but what great ideas, a plugin editor made with SM is surely the answer. 🙂
.g
BasherT ·
Hi Oddson
I am with you in your views of FL and Live. I just can't get my head around them.
I have been using cubase since it came out in the late 80s. It has always been a quality product.
Cubase SE3 retails for under 00 I believe. It has good midi editing. Cubase after all started life as a midi only sequencer. It has the piano roll you are after.
Are there any that you can drag a sequence of notes and they will keep their relative positions based on their relation in a specific diatonic scale rather than strict semitone distances
I don't know of a sequencer that allows the drag facility you are after. I am familiar with most of them.
Time signature options - 13/8 , 9/4 etc. tempo changes.
Yep, SE3 can do this
Can anyone suggest a sampler VST with preset samples that rival/surpass the quality in Reason? I want basic instruments out-of-the-box as well the ability to do my own sampling.
Kontakt is the sampler I use. It has a great library (15G content) and you can pick it up for $99 at the moment (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Native-Instruments-Kontakt-Experience-Sample-Library-for-Kontakt-2?sku=708220)
That probably takes you over the 50 mark but only just.
The alternative would be to buy Reaper and Reason and use rewire.
That way you can use the piano roll in Reason and its sampler but if you want to record some audio reaper can deal with that.
Reaper is a great little program. I use it to mess about on because it is quick and immediate. It's midi capability, however, is very limited (no drag and drop editing - drive me nuts sometimes). I doubt that on its own it would be what you are looking for. It is worth keeping an eye on this though as it is being updated almost on a weekly basis. You can use it for free so download it and give it a go.
Hope that helps mate.
oddson ·
Thanks all... I just had a laugh to myself wondering what I would have heard if I had posted to KVR...
...I knew my roll editor wish-list was more than I'd get. I posted that to show where my interest was, not as 'must have' features.
@BasherT - I had all but excluded Cubase on the price of v.4. I have a bias against buying software with a version number other than current standard release. So based on on your recommendation I'll have anther look.
@GaryG - I am considering Tracktion but I've been put off by hints in reviews that it's MIDI editing was not a strength... but no where did I see what it lacks compared to others to see if the features are important to me.
AngularMomentum ·
If you would buy a new soundcard like the EMU 1212m, you'll get a bunch of software, including a light version of Cubase for free, that would set you back a 150 US dollars. I guess it could be sufficiant for you, and if you ever feel like purchasing a larger version of Cubase, it would set you back less for the upgrade...I do not know the cost of a light version without the soundcard, but maybe should be even less then that...
I just discovered FL is a *^@# with MIDI implementation, I would not recommend that to anyone the way it is now but if you do not care for MIDI...could be a good candidate as the pattern style implementation is very good IMHO. The pattern style sequencing can be good to find variations in a arrangement easier.
As I am a user of Steinberg software for over 20 years, I can say with confidence that anything that resembles Cubase (Logic for instance) is the way to go...again IMHO! 😉
matti ·
I would suggest looking up Cubase too. If you feel at home in XT's environment, Cubase will suit you well. I would also recommend looking into Cubase4 Studio rather than the older SE/SX3 line if you can afford. And if you happen to be a student there's nice price cuts(½) for EDU versions.
My second favourite is Renoise. But i guess its more aimed at old-school computer musicians like myself. Still worth a look. The free "demo" version is basicly all you need. Only lacks Asio drivers and render to wav functions...
angstrom ·
Although Live may not be your choice if you want a normal linear tracking tool I do find it the most fun and creative software in the DAW market.
It's not just for kids doing loops of breakbeats.
It manages to be both simple AND complex
To take your transposition example for instance:
I recently wrote a track more or less on the fly using abletons abilities in this area. I played an electic piano midi part, this ran through an ableton midi scale plugin which made sure any transposition was modal. I had mapped the e-piano part I played to trigger across the whole keyboard. I could switch between 'restarting' or 'inserting' the repitched clip. If that makes any sense.
you can hear the result here, only the first bar is played - it repeats 3 times, then I start pitching it about.
http://www.angstrom.timeshard.com/media.php
it's the top track 'expectation gap'
Live is the least conventional DAW
interesting news today for instance
http://www.liveapi.org/
we've figured out how to get access to Ableton Live's Python API, we've documented our techniques and currently provide two methods for manipulating it. LiveTelnet, written by Rob King provides a telnet server within Ableton Live to access the running Python environment and LiveOSC written by Nathan Ramella provides OSC control of Live via UDP network traffic. Both methods allow for remote network control.
I've tried going back to Cubase , which I used from "Steinberg Pro16" to CubaseSX ... but I just couldn't, I found it too restrictive to the way I now work.
oddson ·
angstrom wrote: ...ableton midi scale plugin...
hmm? Ok you had my attention there but then I listened to your track. Now I'm really interested. Great tunes all around BTW.
I'm not quite ready to dive in to buy but I did update the Lite version and I'm going to give it another chance. It's baffling to me and I hate the piano-roll editor so far.
Does anyone have an opinion on Pro-Tools? I was considering it as it's price point (for the M-Audio version) is about what I was thinking of spending.
Does anyone have an opinion on Pro-Tools? I was considering it as it's price point (for the M-Audio version) is about what I was thinking of spending.
I would not bother with pro tools as Live and Reason rewired into reaper will be much better. I think reaper is a better editor than the lite Pro Tools - just my opinion, but many others think similarly. I used to have a digi002 usng pro tools and or Logic on a Mac - I much prefer Reaper to either, even though I quite liked Pro tools
oh and i work in an academic environment where a lot of quite involved work is done using Live., so it is definitely not just for repetitive beats
infuzion ·
Of note: every DAW, whatever, has its own "sound". Other Live people find that Live does color the sound a bit, to me it is a tad crisp. Reason is very lush, even w/o reverb, & I can often pick it out. Acid & Logic has a unique sound as well.
doug4350 ·
Hi oddson,
Does anyone have an opinion on Pro-Tools?
I've steered clear of protools for the reason that their h/w is somewhat proprietary, even though it is pc based. I didn't even bother looking at their s/w because they just might sneak in a required driver that only works on their h/w, thus commiting you to a much bigger investment. Just be wary of that...
Aloha,
Doug
infuzion ·
doug4350 wrote:
Does anyone have an opinion on Pro-Tools?
I've steered clear of protools for the reason that their h/w is somewhat proprietary, even though it is pc based.
But, ProTools is the standard for pros, esp for Rock, Blues, etc.
oddson ·
doug4350 wrote: I've steered clear of protools for the reason that their h/w is somewhat proprietary
I already have an M-audio soundcard and I'm only talking about the M-powered version. It seems to be virtually the same as the LE version but missing a few add-ons. I may go this way at a later date.
infuzion wrote: But, ProTools is the standard for pros, esp for Rock, Blues, etc.
That's part of the appeal I guess. Just in case I win the lottery and can afford a full project studio I'd be familiar with their software.
gregh wrote: I would not bother with pro tools as Live and Reason rewired into reaper will be much better.
I haven't checked out Reaper yet. I thought the screen shots looked very amateur... I hate to say it... it put me off a tad. I do like Reason but thought it has a bit of a 'toy' reputation. Since it would be a toy for me that didn't put me off too much but I'm glad to here no one slagging it here. I don't know about rewire as a solution. Seems like an awkward kludge to me. I think I'd only go there to add audio toward the end of a mostly-Reason project.
angstrom wrote: I played an electic piano midi part, this ran through an ableton midi scale plugin which made sure any transposition was modal.
First... I love that track 😍 Second... this comment alone got me to spend enough time in Live tonight to see I could probably get a handle on it and maybe even like it. I think the mixer view that seems to predominate over the more traditional sequencer view put me off. I'm going to keep playing in the M-Audio version for a while and think very seriously about the full version.
matti wrote: I would suggest looking up Cubase too. If you feel at home in XT's environment, Cubase will suit you well. I would also recommend looking into Cubase4 Studio rather than the older SE/SX3 line if you can afford.
The price point is too steep for me. I'd need a really compelling reason to spend this kind of coin... and I haven't heard one yet.
AngularMomentum wrote: I just discovered FL is a *^@# with MIDI implementation, I would not recommend that to anyone the way it is now
Care to elaborate?
AngularMomentum wrote: As I am a user of Steinberg software for over 20 years, I can say with confidence that anything that resembles Cubase (Logic for instance) is the way to go...again IMHO!
What is it's big advantage?
Thanks again to all... I think I'll end up buying more software than I'd planned but over a longer period of time. I might just pop for Reason now and then decide about a DAW once I feel the need for one. I now suspect the full version of Live will be in my future somewhere... I just hope their midi editor gets better... or I figure out how to adjust my style of editing to match it's tool-set.
gregh ·
Hi Oddson,
try not to be put off by the looks of reaper - i know some people are - it is very powerful for some purposes. It is used to record live concerts of the major orchestras and classical performers in Australia. I've used it a lot and it can easily handle continuous recording for 12 -14 hours without a hitch. I hardly use Adobe Audition at all now - only for some of the filters, spectral editing, and the restoration tools.
Having said that, it may not suit your workflow at all and I wouldn't use something where the aesthetics annoyed me
oddson ·
Sorry... I should have made it clear. I really don't like the fact that I was put off by it's GUI - I like to think I can see past superficial things. I should have added I will give it a try.
infuzion ·
oddson wrote:
infuzion wrote: But, ProTools is the standard for pros, esp for Rock, Blues, etc.
That's part of the appeal I guess. Just in case I win the lottery and can afford a full project studio I'd be familiar with their software....I do like Reason but thought it has a bit of a 'toy' reputation.
If you have M-Powered, then you can save your entire project & work on it with the full-version at a pro-studio, or send it off to mastering.
Seems 90% of Tarnce & D&B are made with Reason somewhere... Reason's lush sound makes it great for Trance, & many D&B producers couldn't live w/o ReCycle.
matti ·
infuzion wrote: Seems 90% of Tarnce & D&B are made with Reason somewhere... Reason's lush sound makes it great for Trance, & many D&B producers couldn't live w/o ReCycle.
90% of Trance is not done with Reason. Perhaps 20% is closer. Usual sequencers for trance producers are Logic and Cubase. Trust me, i know alot of trance producers 🙂
oddson ·
gregh wrote: Hi Oddson,
try not to be put off by the looks of reaper...
WOW! - I love this thing... the MIDI editing looks a little sparse but not much different than most of the expensive programs and for $40 bucks (for the non-commercial licence) it's a steel. Plus the developer looks really great and there's lots of indications they pump out improvements on a regular basis. Maybe there's even room to influence the direction (like a certain synth-building program I came across a couple years ago).
Thanks so much for the push in this direction...
AngularMomentum ·
Well what it does is filter out MIDI messages except the note off/on messages, then you have to set if you want to be able to use aftertouch for instance, everything manually, this also counts for every other CC you want to use...you need to setup a MIDI out panel and a remote control panel...so if one would have MIDI learn made on his VST, this becomes useless the way the developer intended it to.
So if one makes a VST with a preset that has aftertouch for a little extra expression, the user has to first make that controller information available in FL for this to work, it does not work right out of the box like any other sequencer on the market.
gregh ·
oddson wrote:
gregh wrote: Hi Oddson,
try not to be put off by the looks of reaper...
Thanks so much for the push in this direction...
glad i could help 🙂
the whole package - software, developers, support community, is pretty hard to beat
GaryG ·
oddson wrote: I am considering Tracktion but I've been put off by hints in reviews that it's MIDI editing was not a strength... but no where did I see what it lacks compared to others to see if the features are important to me.
It's just all a bit basic. If you just want to enter notes and move them about fairly rapidly then it's fine. Beyond that though... no clever editing options or tools at all (transpose selected notes is about as clever as it gets). Some moan about the tool paradigm it uses or a reliance on modifier keys for simple editing. You'll find plentry of -Ves if you search the Raw Materials forum on KVR 😉
.g
MyCo ·
That's my way:
Cubase VST + hardware synths
Reason (so I've sold my hardware synths)
Cubase SX1 + 2 (bought some additional VST)
Fruity Studio
So here some quick tips:
If you don't want any external instruments, use Reason. Reason has some bad limitations... you can't get high quality Synth-Sounds out of it, so have to use samples
If you've some hardware synths, use Cubase... for hardware it is still the best. But the handling of internal VST-stuff is quite annoying. And the biggest problem: it uses too much CPU, so if you want to make big tracks with VST devices, you have to freeze some of them
If you want to use software only, the best choice is fruity studio. If you buy it, you get a lifetime free update guaranty... so you don't have to pay for newer versions. The handling of VST devices is that easy, that you don't have to care about anything.
I've bought fruity 6 month ago, and til now it is the best I've ever had.
Acrobat ·
I want to give you my opinion on this:
Best options imo are ProTools, Apple Logic Audio and Steinberg Cubase SX.
If you are on the PC platform, you cannot have Logic, but the other two are available (even if for ProTools you are force to buy a M-Audio or Digidesign card). PT is not so good at MIDI as Cubase, but has an astounding quality in recording real instruments, particularly guitars. Cubase it's easier to work with (and it's my sequencer since I was eighteen), you can do rock as well as techno tracks but after many years I can tell you it not perfectly manages timing. I mean you don't get the same sync precision between audio tracks or instruments as in Logic, which has the best timing. In logic everything is perfectly synchronized and you get a very good feeling hearing things exactly in time. In Cubase you can experience some "shuffle" effect that some people even like as it gives some "human feel" to sequencing. A pro musician obviously prefers to apply grooves and not rely on this, anyway.
Kontakt is a very good sampler, has everything you might need from a sampler but has the same good and bads of every virtual instruments, afterall. These days we don't have to worry about megabytes of RAM available as in AKAI days but software is software and hardware is hardware. Even and especially if you are a savesong-savepatch-compulsive subject, the PC hangs always, exactly when you haven't saved your work for hours. Give also a look at the MOTU (Mark Of THe Unicorn) sampler, if it is still available, it is huge and very very very very good quality piece of code... or even Emulator-X, but I never tried this last one...
A.
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