Messy patch cords. Solution?

jorge · 7 Feb 2004

Your ideas make a lot of sense and I like them. Do you prefer the 'Dummy' node feature to a fully vertical/horizontal links with 90 degrees corners as in Digital Circuit editors?

bManic · 9 Feb 2004

Hmm, good question.

I've got some experience with 90 degree patchcords in Max/MSP and I think the 'dummy' node thing would be more flexible even though it requires some more management. The node has lots of possibilities. You could have a node being created always in the middle of a chord (just keep it small enough), even when having a straight line and then when you drag the node somewhere it bends the chord and automatically creates 2 new nodes on each of the new 'straight lines'.

---0---- to

0------0-------MODULE / / 0 / / MODULE

You need to try different aproaches in a messy module, like a complex filter module or something then you'll see which works best. However, for the 'node' approach to work you really need to implement the normal windows 'drag box to select multiple objects' thing first so that multiple nodes can be moved.

Cheers! bManic

jorge · 9 Feb 2004

After your suggestion about 'dummy' nodes I have thought about it and came to a similar conclusion of what you're suggesting now.

You'd start with a link from an output connector to an input connector, in the very middle of the link you'd have some indication that you can drag that point to create a new dummy node. When you create that dummy node, you'd have two straight lines each with a new symbol in the middle indicating that you can drag to create new dummy nodes. The only thing I havent decided yet, is how do you delete a dummy node?

Also you'd be able to start a new branch of a link from a point in an existing link.

I'm looking forward to implement this, its not yet highest priority but it will soon. My priorities at the moment are WaveFile and fixing the PolyToMono component so you can connect it to a Pack component.

bManic · 10 Feb 2004

Well, deleting the nodes must work with a 'drag box around selection' + press DEL key on keyboard. Or simply by right clicking on the node.

I agree that this is low priority. There are much more important basic user interface things you need to get working (like selection tools, basic keyboard shortcuts DEL, CTRL+C, CTRL+V and CTRL+X).

Keep up the good work!

Cheers! bManic

cbit · 10 Feb 2004

The control nodes is a great idea.

I think the problem with using a drag box to delete nodes would be that i think alot of people would expect that dragging a box like that would select the cables themselves (eg. in order to delete them), id prefer it if you were required to click the node itself and press delete to remove it.

It occured to me that it might also be possible to 'bind' nodes from different wires together. This way you could simulate a cable loom as a way of tidying your workspace. I'm interested if other ppl think this would be a workable idea.

i imagine 'looming' might be something you'd do after you'de made all the connections you needed to, as a final step to 'clean up' your patch.. if you needed to go back and edit the layout again you'd propably delete the loom node to gain access to the individual wires again.

(or would 'hide wires' make the looming idea redundant?)

Justaguy · 15 Mar 2004

If you want to study automatic orthogonal (90-degree curves) line drawing, check out the paper by Miriyala, Hornick, Tamassia: "An incremental approach to aesthetic graph layout". The paper describes an algorithm "Segment-space-Dijkstra", where orthogonal routes (line paths) between rectangular "nodes" (like in software diagrams) are found using the good old Dijkstra shortest-path algorithm, however *not* searching in grid-space, but so-called SEGMENT space. The entire picture(diagram) consists of orthogonal "segments", i.e. rectangles, and EVERY line in the whole picture must be a part of some rectangle. To make this possible, invisible VIRTUAL segments are added... Check out the paper! It's a great algorithm, and with just a couple of additions, it could work really fine for Synthmaker.

(Later on, you will probably want to implement some special cases, like several consecutive lines going side-by-side between two nodes, like from connectors 1..4 in node A to connectors 2..5 in node B or something. But even by itself, the Miriyala-Hornick-Tamassia thingy works great.)

So check it out: K. Miriyala, S. W. Hornick, and R. Tamassia. An incremental approach to aesthetic graph layout. In Proc. Internat. Workshop on Computer-Aided Software Engineering, 1993. It's not available online, but it's definitely worth ordering from somewhere!

jorge · 15 Mar 2004

Thanks a lot for your suggestion Justaguy. I'm maturing ideas on how to handle connections between components before I start implementing it. I'll be having a look at "An incremental approach to aesthetic graph layout", at least whatever is available free on the internet based on it. I have already done a search and found very interesting information. An automatic way of orthogonal routing could be very good. I'd be interested in knowing if bManic would still prefer the dummy node bend feature.

bManic · 18 Mar 2004

Well, the only advantage to a dummy node feature is flexibility but at the cost of time.. So I guess that algorithm based thing might work better, if it's "smart" enough. Maybe some controll could be given to the user?

Btw. Sorry for being away so long.. school and my new band has taken quite a lot of time. I just got thrown out of the living room by my girlfriend (we live in a small 1 room + kitchen flat) into the kitchen because of my nightly music composing sessions 🙂 . So now I can sit up all night and fool around with synthmaker. I see it has progressed nicely. Just downloaded the 0.8.0r version.

Cheers! bManic

jorge · 19 Mar 2004

Maybe some controll could be given to the user?

One interesting control that could be given to the user would be to be able to change the "cost per bend", "cost per crossing" and "cost per unit length" used for calculating the total cost of a route.

Btw. Sorry for being away so long..

It is very nice to have you back even if it is just to check on synthmaker's progress.

I just got thrown out of the living room by my girlfriend

Can you please tell her I say thanks. 🙂