FM3x as a vsti crashes Sonar 2.2 and Ableton Live 4.1

malc · 29 Mar 2005

Hi mathman,

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear that you're having problems. I haven't tried Sonar or Live yet. This is something we haven't got round to doing.

I'll download the demo versions and see if I can recreate the problem. Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately I can't offer any suggestions until I look into it, but I'll do that as soon as I can.

It works with FL Studio and Tracktion and I believe Podium and EnergyXT. That may or may not be any use to you.

Shifrin · 29 Mar 2005

malc wrote: It works with FL Studio and Tracktion and I believe Podium and EnergyXT. That may or may not be any use to you.

You could always wrap the FM3x.dll in EnergyXT to use it in Live/Sonar (not tried it myself mind you!). while things are being ironed out

Shif.

mathman · 29 Mar 2005

Thanks for the quick response - I've now got it working in FL Studio 5.01 🙂

However I find that tweaking some of the VCF sliders (ADSR) can cause the CPU meter to start climbing and not stop (even when I try to move them back again).

I don't know if this is a problem in SynthMaker or the instrument design?

malc · 29 Mar 2005

Glad to hear that it's working in FL Studio.

I tried Live and had no problem here. Bit of a long shot, but is it possible that it may be conflicting with another plug-in. Would you be able to try removing everything but the SM plugin from your plug-ins folder, or create a new folder for plugins, put the SM plug-in there and change Live to use that folder.

Let me know if this has any effect.

mathman · 30 Mar 2005

Ok I created a new Vst plugin directory and moved the dll in there. Changed my plugins directory location from within Live.

Tried restarting live a few times and continued to get problems - including an error message about rewire.

On about the fourth attempt Live loaded OK and I could use the plugin.

btw I am using Live 4.1 (NOT 4.1.1)

I need to sleep now but I shall try adding plugins back in tomorrow.

malc · 30 Mar 2005

Ok. Thanks for trying that. I tried 4.1.1 so that's a lead to follow.

Shifrin · 30 Mar 2005

mathman wrote: However I find that tweaking some of the VCF sliders (ADSR) can cause the CPU meter to start climbing and not stop (even when I try to move them back again).

I don't know if this is a problem in SynthMaker or the instrument design?

A few people have mentioned the 'slowly rising' CPU usage problem, there's a thread for it Runaway CPU / Polyphony / Denormal Problem ? 🙂

Shif.

malc · 30 Mar 2005

This is something we're looking into - could be a bug in there somewhere.

EDIT: I'm refering to the rising cpu issue here 🙂

mathman · 30 Mar 2005

malc wrote: Ok. Thanks for trying that. I tried 4.1.1 so that's a lead to follow.

Then again maybe not... I've just now updated my version of Live to 4.1.1 and I still get the same problem.

In the case where the FM3x.dll vst is the only plugin I have in my plugin directrory the problem appears to be intermittent.

i.e. If FM3x.dll is the only synth in my vst directory ("C:\Apps\VstPlugins\SynthMaker\FM3x.dll") then it's a hit and miss affair as to whether I can get Ableton to load without bombing out when it scans for vsts. Once it does manage to scan and get hold of FM3x.dll it will load and I can use the vst.

However I have not been able to get Ableton to load with more than one vst in my plugins directory (e.g. if I add "C:\Apps\VstPlugins\rgcAudio sfz (vsti)\sfz.ll" or "C:\Apps\VstPlugins\Muon Tau (vsti)\Tau.dll" alongside it Ableton bombs out on startup).

Please let me know if you are still unable to reproduce this problem.

Thanks

malc · 30 Mar 2005

Hi mathman,

Galaa has had the same problem as you with Live 4.1.1 - crash on startup.

It's very odd that you're finding it intermittent.

mathman wrote: However I have not been able to get Ableton to load with more than one vst in my plugins directory (e.g. if I add "C:\Apps\VstPlugins\rgcAudio sfz (vsti)\sfz.ll" or "C:\Apps\VstPlugins\Muon Tau (vsti)\Tau.dll" alongside it Ableton bombs out on startup).

Are you saying the crash happens with other VSTi's even if the SynthMaker generated one is not present?

I have been trying again today but still no luck reproducing the problem.

What's your the spec. of your PC?

mathman · 30 Mar 2005

malc wrote: Are you saying the crash happens with other VSTi's even if the SynthMaker generated one is not present?

No - I only get this problem if the SynthMaker vsti is in my plugins folder.

malc wrote: It's very odd that you're finding it intermittent.

Ok this is difficult to explain...

(A) Set up 2 plugin directories:

Plugin dir 1: Should contain only the SynthMaker vsti (I using Fm3x.dll)

Plugin dir 2: Should contain the SynthMaker vsti AND a number of others e.g. rgcAudio sfz, Triangle etc. *It is perhaps worth making sure you enough plugins to make sure the SynthMaker one is neither the first or the last to be scanned when Ableton starts up*.

(B) Start up Ableton , go to Options -> Preferences -> Plug-in. Make the following settings:

Window handling: Multiple plug-in windows: Off Auto-hide plug-in windows: On

Active Sources: Use VST custom folder: ON VST custom folder: [point to Plugin dir 1]

Click on Re-Scan Plug-ins <Re-Scan>

Close the preferences window

(C) At this point Ableton may or may not bomb out either here or on restarting. If it OK then you will probably even be able to add more vstis to the plugin directory and be OK (I guess once detected the plugin does not get scanned so thoroughly again by Live until it next changes?)

(D) Close Ableton.

(E) Start up Ableton , go to Options -> Preferences -> Plug-in. Make the following settings:

Window handling: Multiple plug-in windows: Off Auto-hide plug-in windows: On

Active Sources: Use VST custom folder: ON VST custom folder: [point to Plugin dir 2]

Click on Re-Scan Plug-ins <Re-Scan>

Close the preferences window

(F) At this point Ableton will always crash (on my PC). Both on closing the dialog or restarting Live. As soon as I remove the SynthMaker vsti from the plugins directory the problem goes away and everything is fine.

*Please note* So far I have only tried this with vsti generated from your example -- FM3x.dll (2,620,767 bytes). If you are using a different vsti perhaps we could arrange an exchange via e-mail?

I also notice that when you generate the plugin you have to specifiy a plugin ID - I have tried with two different IDs and still get the same problem.

malc wrote: What's your the spec. of your PC?

Evesham PC: Windows XP (Home) SP2, Athlon 1900xp.

I have three accounts set up on the PC with Fast user switching enabled. The account I am using has full admin rights.

malc · 30 Mar 2005

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, that's very helpful. I'll have another look.

malc · 30 Mar 2005

Ok still no joy I'm afraid.

I've uploaded my VSTi for you to try. It's a bit of a long shot but you never know. [old link]

I'm going to have a look through the code to see if I can spot something.

malc · 30 Mar 2005

I've looked through the code and tried to focus on recent changes that may have affected this. I'm following a lead that may sort the problem. It'll take me about 5 or 10 mins to knock up a new exe and generate a dll for you to try.

Bear with me 🙂

malc · 30 Mar 2005

Ok, try this one when you have a chance: [old link]

I have everything crossed 😉

mathman · 30 Mar 2005

*** EDIT: this applies to the first vsti you uploaded ***

Great...

(1) This vst you have compiled still causes problems - however not as often as the mine (I notice your GUI is different)

(2) I've noticed that I have no problems (aside from the CPU prob) actually using the vsti once its scanned succesfully.

Interestingly I noticed that fruity has 2 modes for scanning for vsts -Fast scan (recommended) -Scan and verify (unsafe!)

If I use the "Scan and verify (unsafe!)" mode from Fruity it also crashes. Whereas the Fast scan if fine.

mathman · 30 Mar 2005

malc wrote: Ok, try this one when you have a chance: [old link]

I have everything crossed 😉

Whatever you did it now seems to be OK 😀

Ableton Live 4.1.1 - OK Fruity Scan and Verify - OK Sonar 2.2 DXI wrapper - OK

Thanks!

However (sorry to be a pain) it does take a looong time to scan/load is this normal (12 secs to place in a track using Ableton)?

P.S. I'm going to sleep now...

malc · 30 Mar 2005

Fantastic!

That's great news. Sorry for all the hassle but we got there in the end. Most bugs are much easier to track down than this. As you'd seen this one could cause intermittent results depending not only on the PC it's running on but also on the current status of that PC (with respect to memory, running programs etc.)

The delay you're seeing is caused partly by the loading time (the performace of which I'm looking into) but mainly the time it takes to calculate the wave tables for the triangle and sawtooth oscillators. I'm hoping that we can improve the speed of these calculations. This issue has been on the back burner for some time now.

Anyway glad to hear that all is working now. We'll release a fix for this very soon. I'll sleep well tonight 🙂

malc · 31 Mar 2005

We're going to do another update with this and a few other fixes (0.9.2k). Should be online by early afternoon.

Thanks.

mathman · 31 Mar 2005

Downloaded the update, compiled the example synth and playing with it in live 🙂

No worries about the hassle I'm just pleased its working.

Thanks