Toolbox : optional text listing ?

dasdeck · 19 Oct 2005

Yeah. and mine is: great!

addition: is there a hotkey to head over to the search compontent entry? would be nice if i could typ for example STRG+S and then ASIO In, hit enter and then an asio in comp is there in my sheme!

D3CK

malc · 20 Oct 2005

There are a few hidden features that you may be interested to know about. First if you hold SHIFT you can double-click on a component to add it. You can also select a component and hit Return to do the same thing.

Components added in this way are positioned one after another horizontally across the schematic until the edge of the view is reached and a new line is started.

One way to reduce dragging mileage is to use the shortcut keys. These are displayed next to the components that have them in the toolbox. You'll find that on average you'll use a only a very small core set of components much much more frequently than the rest.

We don't have a shortcut to go to search D3CK but that's a nice suggestion.

Regarding the text listing, I can see that space is reduced which means that you could fit many more components on a page. However, I'm not convinced that this will make it any easier to use - sorry.

Text descriptions work well for beginners because there is less liklihood of misunderstanding. Text doesn't work so well for advanced users because reading text takes alot of brain power. It's much easier for us to process images than it is for us to read and understand the written word.

Beginners need a toolbox that shows them what components are available and allows them to find out what each one does. For advanced users the key issue is being able to put your hands on what you want as quickly as possible.

The search and filter bar work well while you're learning but as you get more experienced you want to be able to do things quickly. I think the shortcut keys really help here but when a shortcut isn't available it is sometimes quite frustrating trying to find what you want. You know what you want, you just can't find it.

I think the toolbox can definitely be improved.

db · 20 Oct 2005

malc wrote: Regarding the text listing, I can see that space is reduced which means that you could fit many more components on a page. However, I'm not convinced that this will make it any easier to use - sorry.

That's a rather sweeping generalization. Anyone who is quite literate and/or has a uni background tends to be at least as text oriented vs. being visually oriented.

I know if I'm using 1280x1024 or 1600 x 1200 screen rez, the pictures turn into almost undeciferable mini-icons.

The solution would be to have the option for text only or graphics only or both.

Text doesn't work so well for advanced users because reading text takes alot of brain power. It's much easier for us to process images than it is for us to read and understand the written word.

So what you're saying is that advanced users are illiterate? lol!!! 😉

Beginners need a toolbox that shows them what components are available and allows them to find out what each one does. For advanced users the key issue is being able to put your hands on what you want as quickly as possible.

And in both cases, well worded text gives a far more precise and accurate description; thus better aiding explanation and quick searching.

And what about those of us with glasses? Again, text is far more precise than a small graphic representation that may seem logical to you but is new to the user.

when a shortcut isn't available it is sometimes quite frustrating trying to find what you want. You know what you want, you just can't find it.

Which is often the case for me if I just look at the graphic.

skOre · 20 Oct 2005

I do actually look for how the module looks like, especially its connectors. Second is looking after special things in the shape, third is reading the text. Though this sometimes makes it hard to find modules that are distinguishable soley by their name. I do think it could be made better visual. Sizing of the thumbnail overall size, or of the module thumbnail itself could be a way to go.

dasdeck · 20 Oct 2005

although i dont think that intelligent and other gifted people are thinking globally literally, i think that the text Only mode is needed and makes working faster!(REALLY).

Are the shortcuts assignable? that would be great!!(in fact more important than the text thingy, but it must be flexible)

D3CK

fritzman · 20 Oct 2005

db wrote: Text doesn't work so well for advanced users because reading text takes alot of brain power. It's much easier for us to process images than it is for us to read and understand the written word.

So what you're saying is that advanced users are illiterate? lol!!! 😉

Beginners need a toolbox that shows them what components are available and allows them to find out what each one does. For advanced users the key issue is being able to put your hands on what you want as quickly as possible.

And in both cases, well worded text gives a far more precise and accurate description; thus better aiding explanation and quick searching.

And what about those of us with glasses? Again, text is far more precise than a small graphic representation that may seem logical to you but is new to the user.

Hi folks,

I saw such discussions several times and I also heard this visual argument quite often. For me the conclusion on all this is that not all people are the same. It's easy to say what works for me has to be natural for all people, which isn't true in some cases. I'm working with such visual environments for several years now and I simply prefer plain text. In SynthMaker I tried several times to identify some components I wanted to add by it's graphic and I simply failed. I even knew exactly how that thingy I was looking for does look like, and I simply didn't find it that way. I remembered it's name in the same way I remembered it's icon and now I simply do a search, and there it is. It's a fat learning curve with LOTS of icons that you have to learn. additionally you have to learn their names and functions anyway so you have to learn additional info with the icons. The first time I was totally pressed into these fact was with 3D programs. I was using C4D and it wasn't fun with all these icons. Some were good and some simply weren't. So I had to learn the partly illogical (to me) icons plus their names plus their function (as a newbie back then). Now I'm on XSI and it's WAY easier for me as I only have the names, no good or not good looking icons.

For me it's not easy to the eye how Synthmaker does it with the icons. I think it would be cool to be able to toggle between text only and the graphic reptesentation we have right now. That would help me a lot. Additionally for the icons it would be good to be able to resize them. Often they are too small for me and I don't have a fine resolution on my monitor.

Best wishes, FRitz

angstrom · 20 Oct 2005

malc wrote: Text descriptions work well for beginners because there is less liklihood of misunderstanding. Text doesn't work so well for advanced users because reading text takes alot of brain power. It's much easier for us to process images than it is for us to read and understand the written word.

I think the icon view is very good in most circumstances. but in others a text mode would be better.

The main issue is the area that the icons cover without landmarks - browsing 50 icons requires greater scanning and perhaps a few 'next page' clicks, while scanning 50 text links would cover less area.

Perhaps this is more of an issue for new users (who have not memorized all the icons) more than advanced users (who have), but IMHO the advanced users are more likely to have a fuller library requiring greater scanning.

Even advanced users must have scanning issues , users clicking on the 'GUI' menu item would need to remember that 'Grid to Pixel' icon appears on page2 of 4 if the width is 2 icons wide. But if they re-size to 2 icnons wide .. how long would it take you to locate it?

If you introduced a few alphabetic landmarks it might help all users scanning speed improve (EG horizontal rule with a letter in the middle)

I just tested myself - I memorized the look of 'grid to pixel' and then re-sized the view from 2 icons wide to 4 icons wide to see how long it would take me to re-locate it. Ahem, after more than ten seconds I realised it had travelled to page 1. Yes, I am stupid, but perhaps it indicates more than this?

currently I dont use the icons too much as they aren't hard wired into my brain, despite the many varied coloured dots the icons simply remind me of those mensa tests. "Which item goes next" , I can feel my brain overheating! red blue yellow duck triangle potato = ASIO out

I use the search for most things.

I'm not totally sure about the human brain's preference for images / icons over text in all situations. Text of less than 10 chars or familiar text can be considered an icon or glyph too!

If a word you were just thinking of appeared on a roadsign travelling by at 60mph I bet you would notice it.

malc · 20 Oct 2005

angstrom wrote: despite the many varied coloured dots the icons simply remind me of those mensa tests. "Which item goes next" , I can feel my brain overheating! red blue yellow duck triangle potato = ASIO out

😀, ok I hear you. Although do you not find the colour helps? If you were looking for a component that uses floats in amongst GUI components wouldn't the colour give you a good indication of where to look?

First let me say that I don't think the toolbox is ideal as it is. There are improvements that can be made for sure.

I also want to stress that my point was about ease of recognition of an image over text not about readability. In most cases you can spot the symbol for a component far more quickly in a crowd than you would if all you had was a list of names.

But I can see that there are problems. As has been pointed out, many of the symbols are reduced in size and are therefore difficult to read. There is a sameness about some components that makes it hard to tell them apart. The mouse button components actually all look the same - even the names are almost identical! 😊

Scrolling between pages is an issue I agree. Ideally you'd have to pick from items on just one page, you shouldn't have to remember what is on what page and go scrolling through them.

I will need to think more about this. Thanks to everyone for commenting

Tom7777 · 20 Oct 2005

I actaully really like the current system and think that it works fine as it is, please leave the option to keep it this way if you are planning on making changes to it.

angstrom · 20 Oct 2005

oh yes, I think I said earlier - the system as it stands is good , but as the parent title suggests - considering options (ie not replacements) is often fruitful.

It's quite likely that a Text view option as I show it above isn't the best use of space either, but I think some kind of optional view might be useful.

In windows I use 'detail' view as my default rather than 'icons' .. but when in photoshop I use the thumb browser, it's a case of different views suiting different needs.

The design of SM is one of it's (many) strengths, one of the things that drew me to it - though as I am forced to assess usability and acessibity of deep interfaces as a job sometimes I just can't turn 'assesment' mode off.

🙁

malc · 20 Oct 2005

angstrom wrote: as I am forced to assess usability and acessibity of deep interfaces as a job sometimes I just can't turn 'assesment' mode off

And it's great that you do leave it off 🙂. Despite the fact that my comments may have been a little on the negative side I really do appreciate the discussion. I also think that you (and everyone else) have raised some important issues so you have my thanks.

I definitely have something to think about.

EDIT: doh! I meant leave assessment mode on of course 🙂 (maybe I should stay out of this thread) 😊

The Sound Scientist · 20 Oct 2005

If i could make everyone happy........You could add a light green tint to the LETTERED float value mods..A light blue tint to the mono, a light red tint to the midi, and a light yellow tint to the gui...This covers the color recognition side of things.... we could read the mods, save space like Angstom wants, and have all of the LETTERED mods have a light color tinted association.... 😉 like I said if only I could make everybody happy.. 🙂 😀 😉 .....Peace and Science

Malc, what do you think about this idea????? 😀

db · 20 Oct 2005

malc wrote: angstrom wrote: as I am forced to assess usability and acessibity of deep interfaces as a job sometimes I just can't turn 'assesment' mode off

And it's great that you do leave it off 🙂. Despite the fact that my comments may have been a little on the negative side I really do appreciate the discussion. I also think that you (and everyone else) have raised some important issues so you have my thanks.

I definitely have something to think about.

I think the most important issue is to give the users several choices as to how they work. As we have seen, no two users work exactly the same! 🙂

oddson · 21 Oct 2005

There are some good ideas here, but I don't think we can have them all...

As for the existing component features; what about missing data types for the type selector feature? Arrays and wave data are missing.

BTW - I only figured out recently that you can do both AND and OR searches on data types by control-clicking more than one type for AND and shift-clicking for OR.

This is a very cool feature when, say, you want to control a float based on a boolean value. A quick 2 control-clicks and at least you know whether it's going to be easy (a component already does it) or not.

I've never seen this mentioned in the form (though I can't say I've read all 12000 posts). 😉

rl · 21 Oct 2005

very good suggestions here. I personally like sound sientist's best (coloured labels) and the option to switch between text and icon view.

What I'm wanting most is more keyboard shortcuts:

+-/* for float operators SHIFT (+-/*) for int operators CTRL (+-/*) for stream operators

Maybe a "statistical research" should be made to assign shortcuts for the most used components.

how about user definable shortcuts?

..and - as already suggested - a shortcut to jump to the toolbox search field.

malc · 21 Oct 2005

I've been wanting to do some re-design of the toolbox for a while now. This will still need to take a back seat for now but when it does happen I'll certainly consider all the issues and suggestions made here.

In the meantime assignable shortcuts should be relatively easy to provide. Another example of a small but useful feature that's been stuck in the queue.

Jumping to the search should also be easy enough.

(I haven't forgotton about those String components either rl 🙂)

fritzman · 21 Oct 2005

Yes,

User definable shortcuts!!! I NEED a "save as" short cut. One of the most used things here. 😉

Best wishes, FRitz

Tom7777 · 21 Oct 2005

how about user definable shortcuts?

I asked for this way back, its good to know its getting added soon, should make things a lot faster when working in SM 🙂

dasdeck · 21 Oct 2005

fritzman wrote: Yes,

User definable shortcuts!!! I NEED a "save as" short cut. One of the most used things here. 😉

Best wishes, FRitz

maybe you could have some use for a Save as new version option, wich saves with the actual filw name and a prefix _1,_2,_3, like me. I think those things are easy to realise in windows sdk window and menu codes.

D3CK

fritzman · 21 Oct 2005

dasdeck wrote: fritzman wrote: Yes,

User definable shortcuts!!! I NEED a "save as" short cut. One of the most used things here. 😉

Best wishes, FRitz

maybe you could have some use for a Save as new version option, wich saves with the actual filw name and a prefix _1,_2,_3, like me. I think those things are easy to realise in windows sdk window and menu codes.

D3CK

Yoh D3CK,

that sounds even better. Mostly I save incremental.

Best wishes, FRitz

angstrom · 22 Jul 2006

ker-bump !!

angstrom, absolutely ages ago wrote:

The window size and faint icons represent what I compressed into text, it seems a text listing is nearly 2 thirds smaller than the iconic view.

I think now, more than ever, a textual option would help clarity - it takes me forever to find things now. I have millions of little boxes with an F on either end that seem to be called "value defu..." or similar. because their name doesn't fit on screen. I usually use the search - but then I am relying on memory - did I call it float adjust to log, was it actually lin to exp , did I call it linear converter? damn! so then I end up stepping through 20 screens of modules, hovering over each candidate.

NOTE: I think if a text option is included it should probably be full width rather than whats in that picture

</moaning>

angstrom · 21 Mar 2008

Necro-mega-bump!

🙂

still finding it hard to use the browser thing, nearly 3 years later a text listing would be much appreciated, as noted in my 2006 post above

infuzion · 21 Mar 2008

angstrom wrote: still finding it hard to use the browser thing, nearly 3 years later

It is getting worse, since there are so many more primitives & SM-modules now, more on the way, & I have to use a bigger workspace/smaller toolbox for my building. Using search is fast sometimes, but not when you search for "float...", "trigger...", etc. In those cases, I'll just click on the folder, then [Ctrl]+click-on-connector.

angstrom · 21 Mar 2008

infuzion wrote: angstrom wrote: still finding it hard to use the browser thing, nearly 3 years later

It is getting worse, since there are so many more primitives & SM-modules now, more on the way, & I have to use a bigger workspace/smaller toolbox for my building. Using search is fast sometimes, but not when you search for "float...", "trigger...", etc. In those cases, I'll just click on the folder, then [Ctrl]+click-on-connector.

yeah, I use the search mainly , or if I can;t remember the name ... I use the connection filter and then flip through the pages scanning all those very similar icons. Like I sad in 2005, it reminds me of one of those MENSA shape recognition tests: "which one of these very slightly different blocks is the one you want?"

infuzion · 21 Mar 2008

angstrom wrote: ...it reminds me of one of those MENSA shape recognition tests: "which one of these very slightly different blocks is the one you want?"

LOL Thanks to having LEGOS when I was a child, I do very well in those tests; my math IQ is near-genius. Too bad I still have problems with calculus & my social-IQ. :/

oddson · 21 Mar 2008

angstrom wrote: I use the connection filter and then flip through the pages scanning all those very similar icons...

I use Cntl-click on the connection filters to do 'AND' searches.

If I want the 'Float Array Get At', for example, I Cntl-click on the four input/output types involved and get back only four primitives. The problem is two of them have names that truncate to "Float Array..." plus one that is 'Float Array". If you can't recognize by the inputs at this point you're forced to wait of a tool-tip over each until you find the right one.

[The connection filter is also great when you don't know whether there is a primitive that does what you want. Wondering if there is a way to get float array data into a poly stream? Cntrl-click will show you there is and it's one of only three primitives with those connectors.]

...with that said I agree a simple, single column, non-truncated text name option would be a good feature.

angstrom · 22 Mar 2008

oddson wrote: angstrom wrote: I use the connection filter and then flip through the pages scanning all those very similar icons...

I use Cntl-click on the connection filters to do 'AND' searches.

If I want the 'Float Array Get At', for example, I Cntl-click on the four input/output types involved and get back only four primitives. The problem is two of them have names that truncate to "Float Array..." plus one that is 'Float Array". If you can't recognize by the inputs at this point you're forced to wait of a tool-tip over each until you find the right one.

yeah, that's exactly what I do, and what I meant by 'using the connection filter'. Which is all fine for "Int-to-colour", but for a lot of my own modules which are just a selection of 'stream' inputs it doesn't work so well. Or - when you know there is a module but you can;t remember what it is called.

I had a big fun hint for 'clear audio' today. 'stop audio' , 'clear buffer', 'drop buffer' ... bool, stream, polystream? hmmm. What section might it be in : system, wave, vst, control ?

I found it eventually.

aliasant · 22 Mar 2008

Made a small mockup.

This shows 2 different ways to look at it. icon mode which would be something like what we have today. And then Text mode with 2 fields. Both selectable.

Also I added something that I have wanted for a long time. Rename and Merge to handle all our different folders.

infuzion · 22 Mar 2008

aliasant wrote: Made a small mockup...

Looks neat! I would make the 2 drop boxes to select "Sort by..." rather than "Search by...", & use tags in the search box to flag the search type (author=aliasant|angstrom, date-before=20080101, etc). Maybe add version to the "Sort by...".

aliasant · 22 Mar 2008

infuzion wrote: aliasant wrote: Made a small mockup...

Looks neat! I would make the 2 drop boxes to select "Sort by..." rather than "Search by...", & use tags in the search box to flag the search type (author=aliasant|angstrom, date-before=20080101, etc). Maybe add version to the "Sort by...".

I had version but replaced it with None. Using None would make it only 1 field instead of two. But yes. Version should be in it. We need a new primitive for this. Vendor and Version primitive. Something we can drop in the module and set version number and Vendor/Creator. This could contain other info as well if needed.

I wanted these to work as "Sort By". With the 2 fields you can set eg. Name as the first and then Date Modified as the second. The result would then be sorted first after name and then, if you have several modules named the same, after modification date.

infuzion · 22 Mar 2008

aliasant wrote: We need a new ...Vendor and Version primitive. Something we can drop in the module and set version number and Vendor/Creator. This could contain other info as well if needed.

I'm wondering if we could use existing Text+Help primitives, but use special markup in the Text that the toolbox would scan & add to its database?

aliasant · 22 Mar 2008

infuzion wrote: aliasant wrote: We need a new ...Vendor and Version primitive. Something we can drop in the module and set version number and Vendor/Creator. This could contain other info as well if needed.

I'm wondering if we could use existing Text+Help primitives, but use special markup in the Text that the toolbox would scan & add to its database?

Dont think that would be to good. Or good enough. It might work but a primitive like the Developer prim or Help prim would do better I think. Something that should be built in for all the primitives as well. That would make it a lot simpler to keep track of our stuff.

Besides. As far as I can tell. The more primitives you put in a vst the longer the loading time. Something we all suffer from.

Make the simple stuff like this and the deZipper a simple primitive. They don need to be customizable. They just need to work and take little space.

Saying again:They just need to work and take little space.

angstrom · 23 Mar 2008

I was thinking about how the browser could be developed and realised that really we could do with a more traditional tree hierarchy view. Because I often want further levels of depth such as Filters -> My own filters -> IIR -> older versions

here's a semi random mockup, obviously a scrollbar would be useful 🙂

infuzion · 23 Mar 2008

angstrom wrote: here's a semi random mockup, obviously a scrollbar would be useful 🙂[/img]

Beginning to look more like Ableton Live! Might need: + more columns for author(s), & perhaps version + more room for extra connectors; SM is missing the Poly-Int, Stream(Poly/Mono/Pack4?)-Double, Color Matrix & Rule connectors.

aliasant · 23 Mar 2008

Angstroms idea is pretty nice. I like having them icons on top. Makes a lot of sense.

Also using folders is a good idea. I totally agree. I have a category named filter. Inside that I might have different kinds of filters but also some from different creators. Organizing it this way would make everything a lot easier.

Only down is that Im a graphics guy. I love icons. It is much faster for me. But I guess I can live with that.

angstrom · 23 Mar 2008

aliasant wrote: Only down is that Im a graphics guy. I love icons. It is much faster for me. But I guess I can live with that.

if you see the little selector icons next to the connection type filters, there you can choose between the current listing and a folder listing 🙂

It's a little like the way that in win explorer you can choose between thumb view and detail view

aliasant · 23 Mar 2008

angstrom wrote: aliasant wrote: Only down is that Im a graphics guy. I love icons. It is much faster for me. But I guess I can live with that.

if you see the little selector icons next to the connection type filters, there you can choose between the current listing and a folder listing 🙂

It's a little like the way that in win explorer you can choose between thumb view and detail view

Hehe I think I had something similar in my mockup.

I wish there was a nice way to have both the icons and the text and that it still shouldnt take much space. But that would be very very hard since many of the primitives and modules are pretty big. They cant be made to small because that would make the icons pretty useless =(

angstrom · 23 Mar 2008

I would actually include the relevant icons for the connector types next to the name, that would help. probably in a new column titled 'connectors'