Synthmaker dead???

Archive · 2012 200 old posts

From the original SynthMaker forum (2004–2014), with its members’ names and dates.

jjs · 21 Apr 2012

As the latest news was from June 2011, almost a whole year ago, i must asume Synthmaker is dead and forgotten by it's makers. The only thing keeping it it alive seems the users. Or maybe i am missing something?

Flowstone against it is getting renewed. (but then theres nothing to do on that forum 😉) Further as you look at the whole vst industry it looks going down, prices drop etcetera, could of course also be effect of the financial states whole continents are in. (except for Brazil because they were smart).

But when is something new for SM coming especially when it comes to multi platform, wav reading and performing as it is intended, for some people 64bit???

Maizesampler has it all when it comes to sampling, but it is missing a few things, if that was taken care of then it could win for lots of people who just want to do sampling with their own gui (instead of Kontakt).

Synthedit is/was busy with a new version (2 years ago allready) but is also still not out, maybe he's waiting on an SM move first. And you'll have to search really good because nothing was mentioned on their website except via forums where some could test the beta.

Anyway when is something new to expect here?

CoreStyler · 21 Apr 2012

I dunno. But seems that the devs are focused on Flowstone. Hope that some greats update to SM will be done in near future. Like x64 export (native) and maybe Audio Units too. (but i think for doing this there are some important changes to do, on primitives (some) and on the UI.. should not use GDI as graphic library. Will be cool if Outsim relases a part of SM code, not entirely, but only the code needed for making real primitives. By that way, many features can be implemented by users too. (like mp3?). but i dont know in what code is written and if is possible to release an API for building only primitives.

MichaelBenjamin · 22 Apr 2012

if they rip out the core functionality and interface concept, rewrite the event system and make it a multiplatform (linux, win, mac) release that would be quite cool. the program is still unbeaten as a learning tool and allows easy deployment of programs. would be stupid if they let it die.

philter5 · 22 Apr 2012

jjs wrote: ...The only thing keeping it it alive seems the users.

synthmaker has always been a tool that was pushed A LOT by users , and especially the forum here is a place where you can find a lot of help from others if you are willing to help them , too. And the Program is also grown with it´s User. A lot of SM´s stock Modules were created by users and then integrated in the next release.

WE WON`T LET IT DIE ! 😀

jjs · 22 Apr 2012

[/quote]

A lot of SM´s stock Modules were created by users and then integrated in the next release. [/quote]

Oh Really, that's really a great thing that users (with a lot of knowledge of programming i assume) can contribute modules for next releases. Hopefully SM-dev will take the time, or is maybe allready doing it, to make contributers more proud and release a new version with some more contributions.

CoreStyler · 22 Apr 2012

jjs wrote:

A lot of SM´s stock Modules were created by users and then integrated in the next release. [/quote]

Will be cool to have an API, a part of the code too. Because modules can do many thing, but can't supply software lacks. For example, by having the possibility to code primitives, many can do some extra things... Like mp3, or disk streaming.

philter5 · 22 Apr 2012

no no don´t get me wrong, i did not mean that SMusers can add modules to a release 😕 ... (usually . but you can add Ideas or Requests in the related Forum Section)

i was more thinking of the users that test out the newest released version, do the bug-hunting, submit error reports, Ideas or Request .

jjs · 22 Apr 2012

Ok thanks for clearing that out Philter 5 🙂

attic · 22 Apr 2012

You are right that the modular self building Vst half of the industry is stagnant right now, except for the Usine release.

Current State of things. Reaktor = Closed environment. I don't care about closed systems. Max = Closed environment. I don't care about closed systems.

Usine = Promising, but I don't know enough about it yet. Here is the latest info I can find. 1)MacOS version We are working on Usine for MacOS and probably iOS (iPad, etc.) We plan to release the first alpha version this summer, and beta(s) at the end of the year. As you imagine, it's an hard job but very important because lots of musicians are working on Mac. During this long development period, suggestions & improvement will be be probably delayed. 2)Usine will be simplified The actual version of Usine inherit of several dark codes and old stuff in the engine and overall ergonomics. The development of the MacOS version is a good chance to change deeply the interface of Usine to be much more efficient and simpler. We'll let you know very soon our vision of what will be DAW in the future: get ride of the traditional track/timeline paradigm and turn Usine into a more "object" approach. 3)Sensomusic Foundation In the middle of January we will launch the Sensomusic Foundation. The Sensomusic foundation will be dedicated to artists and projects using Usine in a creative and innovative way. Through various actions, we will try to provide financial supports to artists and projects during the year: - best add-on contest - licences Donation - video clip contest - direct financial support for artists or collective projects 4)OSC learn we'll launch the next version of Usine very soon (5.71). The main improvement will be the implementation of 'OSC learn' functionality. Senso++++

Synthmaker = Great user base ... who even knows on development... Rumors and guess's ... Still my favorite and by far the best environment around

Clam = Weird License. not ready for prime-time.

Synthedit = Slow upgrades and development ... the developer at least talks to the community.

I can comment more on Synthedit as I am fairly active in it right now, but of course I am hoping for the Synthmaker comeback. Synthedit in the alpha version now has Oversampling functional. Schematic layouts now allow you to bend the connection wires. Various small updates to midi modules. 64bit and Mac are on the way but don't hold your breath, with the slow rate of development that could be some time. Win 8 support is coming ... Touch?...Probably. Html5 is also being talked about but not off the drawing board. Accelerated graphics are in for the design environment, but I am not sure what that means for plugins .... I think its dependent on the Steinberg Sdk if that has any impact outside of the design environment for plugins. All the old modules will have to be updated ... will this happen....some are being ported IE("2 DH modules to 64bit AND to Mac. Took only part of an afternoon, most of that was updating from SDK2 to SDK3. Any non-GUI module is quite easy to port. Remember SDK3 is already 64-bit and Mac compatible, so many modules written with the latest SDK are trivial to port to 64-bit, literally a 5 minute job.") Well that's news from SE.

One last thing ... I don't believe for a second that Synthmaker is dead. I just think it takes huge amounts of time to program.

I miss this forum and all the good people. 🙁 What up Trog, they couldn't have picked a better mod. I wonder what Oddson is doing with his newly found free time. 🙂

Andrew J · 23 Apr 2012

attic wrote: Current State of things. Reaktor = Closed environment. I don't care about closed systems. Max = Closed environment. I don't care about closed systems. Usine = Promising, but I don't know enough about it yet. Synthmaker = Great user base ... who even knows on development... Rumors and guess's ... Still my favorite. Clam = Weird License. not ready for prime-time. Others ???? Synthedit = Slow upgrades and development ... the developer at least talks to the community.

Here's a new one being developed with Juce: Audio Plugin Generator

It's aimed at prototyping and I don't think it let's you do your own GUI...

attic · 23 Apr 2012

That is super cool. I hadn't seen this one yet and they used HDF5 in it.

HDF5 has its origin in the space industry, where there is a strong need to collect data of very different kinds and store them in a structured way. This is done by organizing the data in a similar manner as it is done in a file system. Data are grouped as datasets which are accessible by a path name. Each dataset can have an individual data structure. This can be a matrix, a picture or even a custom data type. There is no limit on the size of a dataset. Furthermore datasets can be decorated with attributes, which can store information of how the data have been recorded.

You need these items

MATLAB (32 bit R2009a or newer, 64 bit 2010b or newer) with Simulink and DSP System Toolbox Real-Time Workshop or Simulink Coder Visual Studio 2008 or 2010 or Visual Studio Express VST Plugin host

I have know idea how much APG costs. But just for Matlab and add-ons its over 2000 dollars add to that Visual Studio than whatever APG costs plus I didn't find if you need to own a JUCE License. So very expensive.

Cost is prohibitive at least for me. Here is the link for Matlab pricing. http://www.mathworks.com/tagteam/71494_NA_91529V12.pdf

As to building your own GUI didn't they say it is XML. I think probably you can build your own, but maybe not easy like SM.

@Nix or anyone with Usine. How is Usine for GUI. I tried it for a moment, it seems to be like Max and you have to load it in their wrapper, is that correct. Maybe it seemed a bit expensive on Cpu also? I am most interested in Granular and Midi Arp & chord type things so any input on those is of use to me. Thanks.

jjs · 23 Apr 2012

wow Synthedit looks promising, takes only time to get it out. But we'll see 🙂 i'm going to take a look at the others too.

attic · 23 Apr 2012

takes only time to get it out.

Uhm yeah, but I'm getting kinda old and all the waiting makes me cranky.

wow Synthedit looks promising, takes only time to get it out. But we'll see 🙂 i'm going to take a look at the others too.

Well sure, but you loose a huge amount of graphical ease for GUI design and there are many things that you cannot do there as apposed to here with Synthmaker. There isn't a perfect system out and probably never will be, you have to pick what you want to do and buy accordingly. Your best bet is to own both. I had a dream one time about a program called SynthEditMaker, Jeff and Malc where shaking hands .... it was just beautiful .. a tear comes to my eye. Then I woke up.

Well I tried Maize also, it sounds ok but it really lacks in depth and the GUIs that you get from it leave a ton to be desired. I am on the same page as you, we need a good tool for building different kinds of samplers. I talk to small developers almost daily and its amazing how many people want something for building custom sample tools. SampleMaker would sell a lot of copies. The Sfz thing here needs streaming and much work around the edges. On the Synthedit side you also have some tools like the archaic Sf2 player. 🙁 Ever since Native instruments cut small developers out of the game many people look but few find a good alternative .... unless your an uber-geek C++.

attic · 24 Apr 2012

I said stagnant but there does seem to be some movement with PD see this link http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/04/patch-your-own-music-creations-free-pd-extended-arrives-far-more-usable/#more-23669 PD seems to be a closed environment so not much use to me but interesting for some. http://puredata.info/downloads/pd-extended/releases/0.43.1

hudson_m · 24 Apr 2012

Having dabbled a bit with Flowstone, I don't see why the company has SynthMaker as a separate product any more.

Would make much more sense to just have Flowstone with VST export added, and then one product to sell/maintain. There could be a 'VST' edition priced to match the Synthmaker price?

CoreStyler · 24 Apr 2012

hudson_m wrote: Having dabbled a bit with Flowstone, I don't see why the company has SynthMaker as a separate product any more.

Would make much more sense to just have Flowstone with VST export added, and then one product to sell/maintain. There could be a 'VST' edition priced to match the Synthmaker price?

But.. having com ports, embedded system, controllers and webcams.. this make no sense for Plugins developers. And i think, is better having a c/c++ module code instead of ruby for audio.

aliasant · 24 Apr 2012

CoreStyler wrote: But.. having com ports, embedded system, controllers and webcams.. this make no sense for Plugins developers. And i think, is better having a c/c++ module code instead of ruby for audio.

Why not having ports?

Imagine selling a VST plug that is compatible with Xbox controls or design your own hardware interface for your SM Synth or even create a dancing robot to go with it just for fun 😀

I dont care at all for c#/++. If I did I would use that and not SM. On the other hand, if SM got improved assembly up to date with others and better VST support or perhaps a built in vst wrapper like this ( http://hypercube-softwares.dyndns.org/s ... stwrapper/ ) then i would be smiling.

Anyways. Seems this discussion isnt needed since SM truly looks at least in coma. If someone else with more resources bout it they could turn it into something really usefull not only for plugin makers but for small softwares and apps for phones, pads and such.

CoreStyler · 24 Apr 2012

aliasant wrote: CoreStyler wrote: But.. having com ports, embedded system, controllers and webcams.. this make no sense for Plugins developers. And i think, is better having a c/c++ module code instead of ruby for audio.

Why not having ports?

Imagine selling a VST plug that is compatible with Xbox controls or design your own hardware interface for your SM Synth or even create a dancing robot to go with it just for fun 😀

A good thing. SM is a good platform, imagine if it will be cross-platforms... AU export, x64, and create apps for iphones and androids too. The develoepers will be rich. 😉 I have many many request of AU pluigns. Damn, for doing that i must learn C++ and porting it into juce or VST 3.x. But, seems that VST 3.x can be built on x64 and supported by Mac.. not true? So using a cross-platform core, including a cross-platform graphic library.. Many people will jump from MAX MSP to Synthmaker for sure, since it does not export VST and pluggo is dead.

attic · 24 Apr 2012

Many people will jump from MAX MSP to Synthmaker for sure, since it does not export VST and pluggo is dead.

I agree this is the right time for Outsim to make their move as so many of the modular design applications are going the route of closed systems and in general thumbing their noses at us small developers. Outsim could grab more of the market if they would move quickly. Something is bound to happen though, this style of programming is going to do nothing but grow. The market will also get much bigger, my kids are of a generation that has no fear of technology and tools like SM will be one of the first place's they start.

trogluddite · 24 Apr 2012

Sadly, almost everything contained in the previous few posts has already been pointed out to the developers by me, and I'm pretty sure several others. OutSim replied very politely - but seemed set on their certain path, with no explanation or justification for their choice - they said SM would still be developed, but they are hardly likely to say otherwise as long as there are still some sales. At the time of Flowstone release, I had quite an exchange of e-mails with them where I made several points...

- Separating FS from SM cuts FS users off from the accumulated knowledge of all the "guru's" here - and OutSim are pretty slack when it comes to documentation. Seemed to me, that having a body of experienced users would be a damned good selling point for their new software. - Some folks want VST, some want LAN, some want Robots - as the core engine is the same, I proposed that there be a single "core" product; pretty much just the "green" engine and the basic primitives. Then a modest fee could be charged for "add-on" packs to give each user exactly the features they desire. - The connection between SM and FS is obvious to anyone who researches their software before purchasing. Neglecting the SM user base potentially leads to a bad reputation that decreases FS sales.

My guess is that there is some commercially sensitive reason why they have chosen this route - something to do with licensing deals (e.g. FS version), or conditions placed on them by people/institutions who have put financial investment into the company. This is a common enough situation for small companies trying to grow, but in need of help to find the resources - and it is quite possible that "outside help" was necessary to avoid succumbing to the "economic downturn" and ending OutSim forever.

The silence is certainly deafening - and on previous form,they will probably remain secretive about their plans. But this does not necessarily mean that SM has been abandoned - there have been long periods of silence before followed by unexpected updates.

CoreStyler · 24 Apr 2012

I like the idea of "expanding packs". A unique software that fit the two ways of dev. (since is nature is the same code). But, this is also something that confusing. "DSP robotics" "robots" "Controllers" has not so much to do with audio. The splitting of the softaware seems needed also for targeting users. Synthmaker is a name that make easy to understand what the software does/is for. I don't know how many resource need a software like this to bump.. but is sure that a Synthmaker with VST 3.x, AU exports, cross-platform, disk streaming, x64 and maybe using a code language.. like c/c++ or more simple like Ruby.. or java? (isn't so simple, but does not requires pointers) ... This will be sure something that will make developers, not just small ones, at least try SM. How many will buy a software that has these features? many, sure. Will be not a "learning" or "prototyping" tool, but a choose between SDK's and Visual audio programming. The geek's will use SDK. Many, for the easy use, SM.

tester · 24 Apr 2012

Maybe they believe that the market is like they believe and not like it really is? This is very often situation. People (companies) follow their dreams based on their assumptions and interpretations. There is a room for making money for everyone, but most nobody can get beyond certain threshold. Reason is simple - reality follows its own paths.

CoreStyler · 24 Apr 2012

tester wrote: Maybe they believe that the market is like they believe and not like it really is? This is very often situation. People (companies) follow their dreams based on their assumptions and interpretations. There is a room for making money for everyone, but most nobody can get beyond certain threshold. Reason is simple - reality follows its own paths.

True. but nothing of that will make me stop dreaming about Synthmaker further possibilities. Some people release amazing FREE softwares. This is not a free software, so should be more "easy" dreaming on. Maybe will not be now, not SM. But maybe a fork or a similar project.

tester · 24 Apr 2012

There is no death, so nothing can be dead. There is no afterlife, because everything is life (and alive), just in a different form and shape. Yet this life is an illusion, a dream, among other dreams and dreams within dreams, and you are a dreamer that is dreamed. Stimulate the intelligent emptiness with a conscious presence of self - and it will produce something out of nothing, out of quantum void (just be focused on/in your intent and be precise, we don't want another ice age yet). 😉 Simple, efficient, succesfull. One coffee please... 🙂

Lui · 24 Apr 2012

there is someone at kvr who posted this 2 weeks ago:

"I'm a very experienced software engineer with a big interest and education in music. In particular synthesis. One thing I see a lot of is that VSTs and software synths in general take a lot of CPU bandwidth. I was wondering if someone who has more knowledge in the publically available VST libs can answer a question I have. I am aware of the Steinberg SDK. Is that the source that everyone is using? or is there a different one? In addition, is the source code available? I've been thinking that a lot of the CPU bandwidth issues is due to inefficient libraries. I come from a strong embedded software background which gives me unique insight into ways to speed up such algorithms, such as switching from Floating point to integer arithmetic, and finding ways to combine multiple architectural steps into one using techniques like creative algorithm minimization using the psychoacoustic limitations of the human ear, lookup tables, and so forth. So, please, if you can answer the questions as follows. 1. About the libraries. 2. Source code? 3. Is there room for algorithm optimizations.

What I might do is take an existing synth that uses these libs and then I can rewrite functions in the library and make them MUCH faster.....and then get the managers of that synth to rebuild using my new library to see how well it is improved. I'm just throwing out ideas right now, not promising anything Smile I'm a software engineer with a degree in hardware engineering (electronics) and about 30 years experience, mostly in embedded systems but I've done just about every level of development, including hardware synthesis (verilog). I know most programming languages and most OS's including RTOS's (real time operating systems).

Ultimately, it might also be cool to take a micro-itx board and use it as a bare RT PC running something like QNX and then porting some package like Ableton live to that platform and then porting VST library to that platform. The result would be a screaming PC that is much faster handling VSTs....making an ideal VST music engine.

Anyways, for starters, I'd love to get my questions answered.

Thanks to all who reply. -Donald"

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

maybe he could work on SM.

attic · 25 Apr 2012

Like I said I do not think SM is dead. I think the developers probably are locked in under some kind of deal like Trog said and maybe feeling the pinch after years of development. The first six years are always hard but if that user base increases you will start to have something with proper marketing & management. They could make their move and see this thing expand right now. People are looking and not finding what they need. Threads like this don't help but if Outsim would share a roadmap and work on user driven development it would start to work for them at least in the current climate.

On the Flowstone thing ... a friend and I have been thinking about some projects to be taken to market that would use an embedded system. We considered Flowstone, but my opinion on what has been happening here with SM has colored that decision. I will say that in the end a smart move would be to merge Flowstone and SM after that a smarter move would be to listen to the existing user base and respond to their needs. I live right down the street from Make Magazine and they have been doing nothing but expanding, the current culture indicates great success for those who implement the direction developers are asking for.

On a final note ... most small developers have made a synth and many people are tired of the same sounding plugins. Another analog synth is not what people want. The current Modular environments are not expanding components for the many people that want to build custom Samplers. Tools for Granular are far and few + the Midi subsystems have been under developed to accommodate tasks like creating full on Auto Accompaniment. The sample design market is expanding and many want to design their own. Developers do not want to be in a closed system where the end user must buy another companies software just to run that developers sample pack. Its time some company looked at this and created a modular environment that covered the system intensive needs for sample enthusiasts. Outsim is in the unique position of having much of it already but they would need to concentrate their efforts.

By the way Native Instruments is hiring if any of you live in LA or Berlin. http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/specials/careers/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=career-center&utm_source=newsletter NI understand that we live in an expanding market but they are bound and determined to keep it closed and locked to their software. The small sample developer is getting squeezed out, but some forward thinking company will build something the only question is when.

infuzion · 25 Apr 2012

IMHO 1/2 of what is keeping these forums alive is the "Is SM Dead?/Where is OSX port/64bit?" threads.

attic · 25 Apr 2012

If we at least had an SDK we could start making up for the slack.

CoreStyler · 25 Apr 2012

infuzion wrote: IMHO 1/2 of what is keeping these forums alive is the "Is SM Dead?/Where is OSX port/64bit?" threads.

Yes for sure. Because people here selling their plugins want to provide more "usability" to final users. Au for Mac's, x64 for people using x64 DAW's... not really nedeed to use 64bit audio. Just x64 native plugins!

jjs · 25 Apr 2012

😉 😍 I had a dream one time about a program called SynthEditMaker, Jeff and Malc where shaking hands .... it was just beautiful .. a tear comes to my eye. Then I woke up. .

🙂 😀 😉 😍

indeed that would be heavenly fantastico great! 🙂 😇 😇 😇

jjs · 25 Apr 2012

Does any of these messages ring a bell with the dev guys? or are these kind of messages just never seen by them? Or maybe this part of the forum is never visited by them?

Please devs give us and all other people keeping it here alive an update of what is coming.. Thanks! 😇

CoreStyler · 25 Apr 2012

jjs wrote: Does any of these messages ring a bell with the dev guys? or are these kind of messages just never seen by them? Or maybe this part of the forum is never visited by them?

Please devs give us and all other people keeping it here alive an update of what is coming.. Thanks! 😇

Yes. will be cool to ear some from OutSim about these things. Infos on "Yes we are thinking about x64 support and Au Export".. will sure make me more convinced to upgrade to professional!

pall · 29 Apr 2012

I think if the Outsim would be one and unified software would benefit everyone. Those who dealing with robotics would have access to all audio facilities And we, we deal with synths, we enjoy the FlowStone. OutSim would have nothing to lose. Quite the opposite. Repeat- absolutely everyone would benefit. About vitality...No worries. SynthMaker is too good to be disposed.

attic · 29 Apr 2012

I think if the Outsim would be one and unified software would benefit everyone.

I agree.

billv · 30 Apr 2012

Current State of things. Reaktor = Closed environment. I don't care about closed systems. Max = Closed environment. I don't care about closed systems. Usine = Promising, but I don't know enough about it yet. Synthmaker = Great user base ... who even knows on development... Rumors and guess's ... Still my favorite. Clam = Weird License. not ready for prime-time. Others ???? Synthedit = Slow upgrades and development ... the developer at least talks to the community.

Yeh, a few more..... Tassman: I think it's a closed system though.

Infinity(by SoundQuest)-got this years ago. It's horrible. The worst part is that everything must be placed in the schematic in a "visual order", so you cannot freely place modules wherever you like. GUI building terrible too. Easily one of the worst programs I've ever bought.

REASON RACK EXTENTIONS 3rd party developers can now build/sell. Cross platform. Incredible!. Complete game-changer again. Reason is now "open". I don't code-so I'll most likely miss out-but can't wait to see the SDK anyway.

billv · 2 May 2012

attic wrote: Usine = Promising, but I don't know enough about it yet.

I've been using it for two months now. Interesting program. Definatly worth a try. Here's my first attempt. Its a 6 track Sampler/recorder. Download is 7mb https://secure1.storegate.com/Shares/Home.aspx?ShareID=ecce1d24-0bfd-451f-9e04-7f66538e9b8a

attic · 2 May 2012

@Bill What are your impressions of Vst exports also Is Cpu usage decently low and do you think its up to making a commercial plugin?

I tried your sampler its really fun. I used midi learn on the 0 to 16 triggers at the bottom of the GUI and attached to a group of keys. Cpu seems to be around 14% except when I smash as many keys as fast as I can then some spikes much higher. I don't like the manner that Usine re-quire's you to load samples but your project has made me interested for sure.

fmenzer · 2 May 2012

Andrew J wrote: ... Here's a new one being developed with Juce: Audio Plugin Generator

It's aimed at prototyping and I don't think it let's you do your own GUI...

Hey, thanks for mentioning our new product! 🙂

Yes, you are absolutely right with your comments.

attic wrote: That is super cool. I hadn't seen this one yet and they used HDF5 in it.

...

You need these items

MATLAB (32 bit R2009a or newer, 64 bit 2010b or newer) with Simulink and DSP System Toolbox Real-Time Workshop or Simulink Coder Visual Studio 2008 or 2010 or Visual Studio Express VST Plugin host

Cost is prohibitive at least for me. Here is the link for Matlab pricing. http://www.mathworks.com/tagteam/71494_NA_91529V12.pdf

As to building your own GUI didn't they say it is XML. I think probably you can build your own, but maybe not easy like SM.

...

I'm glad you like the HDF5 feature. It's definitely a cool format. Concerning the price, you forgot to mention Simulink and the Simulink Coder, which come at a price of 7500$. :-( Compared to that, the full version of APG is relatively cheap (1000 CHF, approx.

100). And there is of course also the FREE version limited to one audio channel. However, you don't need a JUCE license (afaik that's already covered by the license we bought).

However, if you're working at a unversity, you probably have all these tools already with Mathworks' TAH (total academic headcount) license. If you can make a commercial plugin with that is another question however (honestly, I don't know the terms of that type of license well enough to say what is possible and what not).

In principle, all the features requested here on this forum (MIDI, customizable GUI, 64bit plugins, Audio Units, and even export to iOS apps) could be added to APG with a reasonable effort. The problem is that we're an engineering company, and that we have to think well how we invest our time. My estimate is that we would need to sell about 50 to 100 additional copies of APG to cover the expenses for developing the additional synth-related features. And it's important to consider that our potential customers are limited to those that already have Matlab/Simulink/Simulink Coder or that are willing to spend 10'000$ on Mathworks tools.

Well, I doubt that this development would make economical sense, but I'm very interested in hearing your take on this topic. Maybe we will change our mind...

Best regards, Fritz (dlab GmbH)

billv · 2 May 2012

...It's really a mixed bag of results so far. Good in some ways, crap in others. Made some VST's when i first started with it. I took a SM made synth, then exported it as a VST through Usine and the CPU was really really bad. Similar tests went the same way. So i dropped that option and started to look at the timing system. That was a disaster as well. Looks impressive at 8 Bloc Sample setting-but it can't handle a synth. Audio spits the dummy and have to go back to 128 samples. (their is a "VST Timing " post at the usine forum-Check for more info.)

It's got some great feature's, if you like SM, you will ""feel at home" with it, in a way. I mean, you wire things up and create sounds. Same old thing..... they have a demo too......I dont like the graphics system. I love creating knobs and stuff out of thin air, without going to the toolbox, just by pulling on a input or output. Brilliant. I wish SM had that feature. Only had two months or so. Not sure if it can make a commercial plugin ...???? Nix would know more on that-

CoreStyler · 2 May 2012

I continues to get requests of more compatibility with Cubase 5&6, x64 native and AU. So the market is preset! Please outsim, add x64 export for next release!

attic · 2 May 2012

Hey Bill thanks for taking the time to post that answer on Usine. I hate to say it but it sounds like SM is still the right software except for the complete lack of movement from Outsim. However if they were to nail out some of those mixed bag things maybe its an option.

@fmenzer On the APG software sheesh $8600! Why don't you APG guys come help Malc code us a new copy of Synthmaker get the bugs out and give us disk streaming + speed up GUI draws and we will all give you three hundred bucks. That sounds reasonable to me. 😈 Nice to hear from a developer though, .. but I'm pretty sure your not the developer everyone is waiting to hear from. 😈

fmenzer · 2 May 2012

attic wrote: @fmenzer On the APG software sheesh $8600! Why don't you APG guys come help Malc code us a new copy of Synthmaker get the bugs out and give us disk streaming + speed up GUI draws and we will all give you three hundred bucks. That sounds reasonable to me. 😈 Nice to hear from a developer though, .. but I'm pretty sure your not the developer everyone is waiting to hear from. 😈

Well, we're always open for engineering contracts... 😉

I must admit that the APG was originally designed having in mind big companies and universities as customers.

attic · 2 May 2012

You would make so much more money from all of us small guys looking for the perfect development environment. Universities will get you a few grand here and there, but all of us small developers make up a very large group. Bring it down to a reasonable price range say 300 bucks take a long look at what Synthmaker is and give us an overlay for Juce that makes us feel right at home. Your kinda fishing in other peoples territory here though and they might hate and ban me if I'm to nice to you .... so just to keep any rep I have left .... go #!#*@! yourself and Synthmaker Rules. 😈

fmenzer · 2 May 2012

Can you estimate how many small developers there are? 100? 500? More?

fmenzer · 2 May 2012

attic wrote: So do you guys pay a JUCE license for every copy sold?

No, we just have a regular JUCE license. But as far as I understand, there's an agreement between dlab and raw material software that the APG users can do whatever they want with the plugins they generate. However, I was not involved into the negotiations on this topic, so I would have to check that again. But in principle it makes sense, because APG doesn't give you access to all of the JUCE functionality, but only allows to create certain types of plugins and - for now - with a certain type of user interface.

attic · 2 May 2012

Can you estimate how many small developers there are? 100? 500? More?

Well if you add up the people here and the people at Synthedit that have some of the same troubles then multiple them by the KVR forum plus ad in your assorted mix of Mad Russian Scientists + the random German Audiophile (Basicly the whole German population including Grandma's) then times that by any country that snows for more than 4 months a year and it ends up being about 5000 people over a five and half year period but that's only if you are a marketing genius. Either that or just two people, but I can't be totally for sure.

lol ... as you can see I really don't have a clue how many.

CoreStyler · 2 May 2012

attic wrote: Can you estimate how many small developers there are? 100? 500? More?

lol ... as you can see I really don't have a clue how many.

I will for sure take a software like SM, that use Juce as framework. Also if cost the double. The main lack is the here is the old compiler, no x64 no mac.. CPU consumption graphics.. etc. Not exapandable with code (except internal). Synthedit does, but is not so advanced than SM and is a bit old.

attic · 2 May 2012

I do not want to ever see Synthmaker end. If it dies, I smash my computer and move out to mountains and milk goats or something. Do you hear that Malc you need to do something I'm not so good with animals. 🙁

CoreStyler · 2 May 2012

attic wrote: I do not want to ever see Synthmaker end. If it dies, I smash my computer and move out to mountains and milk goats or something. Do you hear that Malc you need to do something I'm not so good with animals. 🙁

I'll come with u. We will live like Minecraft. 😉 So Malc, we are proud to give help and also money for more features/dev. Please, follows our prays 😍

tester · 2 May 2012

4 pages? So quick? 😉

CoreStyler · 2 May 2012

tester wrote: 4 pages? So quick? 😉

+ Yeah. They'll became 40 soon

philter5 · 2 May 2012

yeah attic so true , that sentences perfectly expresses my deepest 😍 "feelings" for sm , 😀 speaks out of my mind (at the other side it made my day man, i laughed my ass off hehe....thx for that ). i don´t want to SPAM malc with PMs or emails or but perhaps this would have more effect than feeling loster than lost while posting and hoping for just a simple answer what we can expect for the future of SM....

CoreStyler · 2 May 2012

philter5 wrote: attic wrote: I do not want to ever see Synthmaker end. If it dies, I smash my computer and move out to mountains and milk goats or something. Do you hear that Malc you need to do something I'm not so good with animals. 🙁

trogluddite · 2 May 2012

tester wrote: 4 pages? So quick? 😉

He he - think yourself lucky. Soon, the summer will come, the season for whingeing will be over, and this thread will be left behind....

...just about in time for the traditional, bi-annual "Warez - dontcha just hate 'em" Troll-a-Thon.

Troll-a-Thon? Tri-athlon? - yes, it is a little known fact that the Olympic test of athletic endurance was inspired by the SM forum's ancient celebration of the refined art of "thread stamina". Just like the Olympic event, there is an ancient trinity of disciplines... - 10,000 post endurance race - posters go round and round in circles for a very long time covering the same old ground over and over again. - Synchronised thinking (team event) - each team must cleave to its entrenched opinion on the subject for as long as possible. Points are awarded for each nano-meme of opinion shift induced in the opposing contestants (the world record was beaten last year with a staggering 0.000001nM leap - though some consider this to be an anomaly caused by the introduction of licence agreements that force you t scroll to the bottom before you can click "Yes, I read it all, honest, now give me my damned software"). - Sailing (close to the wind) - just how close can you get to admitting you are/were a pirate without actually saying so in so many words. Style scores are awarded for the bare-faced-cheekedness of the subsequent "but I'm a good boy now" retraction - careful though, opponents can also score points for each "bump" of their hysterically outraged response. This will be an especially tough competition this year, now that the "But I was just a naive teenager..." defence has been ruled too pathetic to be used in professional level events.

Naturally I will win the gold medal for the "longest, rambliest, most off-topic post" - but that is just a formality these days-

Viva SM Forum! 😉 😈 😍

tester · 2 May 2012

So many replies after my last entry ? ? ? 😀

Btw. new audacity is on the market (since March or so), version 2.0. Worth to mention because my sophisticated mega plugins work there too 🙂

attic · 3 May 2012

This will be an especially tough competition this year, now that the "But I was just a naive teenager..." defence has been ruled too pathetic to be used in professional level events.

Yes plus many of us are over 40. 😝

fmenzer · 3 May 2012

CoreStyler wrote: I will for sure take a software like SM, that use Juce as framework. Also if cost the double. The main lack is the here is the old compiler, no x64 no mac.. CPU consumption graphics.. etc. Not exapandable with code (except internal). Synthedit does, but is not so advanced than SM and is a bit old.

Cool. That is nice to hear. 🙂 Maybe one day we manage to make a version not requiring the MathWorks tools which cost something like

0'000. I guess then we would get into the right price range... But don't expect this to happen anytime soon (unfortunately).

billv · 4 May 2012

attic wrote: Is Cpu usage decently low .

I re-visited the main synth i was building in Usine, and yeh, It was the CPU usage that made me stop working on it. It sits on 45% CPU in FL Studio. It runs at 50% to 55%. But that was my first go, so I've obviously done something wrong in the design. I'll have another go at it one day.............

attic · 4 May 2012

@billv I see. I appreciate the time you are taking to fill us in on Usine. I did read that they are working towards an Osx version.

Cheers

cyto · 7 May 2012

I generally don't like getting into these types of threads, but I saw this today...

from DSP Robotics Blog:

New - the Ruby module in FlowStone now supports MIDI in and out. This allows you to make accurate timing for things like sequencers etc.

How long have we been asking for something like this? I'm afraid we have officially been forgotten!!! 😠

-cyto

Lui · 7 May 2012

or maybe sth. is about to come?

attic · 7 May 2012

I'm excited about that Ruby module in FlowStone. I think it will come our way at some point. Of course the wait leaves us all wondering and worried about the state of things, but I am trying to keep a positive outlook. Outsim being Outsim are probably just taking their time with details on how they intend to integrate that. When that ruby stuff does make it our way, hopefully it restores some faith in the general Outsim ethic.

stw · 7 May 2012

cyto wrote: I generally don't like getting into these types of threads, but I saw this today...

from DSP Robotics Blog:

New - the Ruby module in FlowStone now supports MIDI in and out. This allows you to make accurate timing for things like sequencers etc.

How long have we been asking for something like this? I'm afraid we have officially been forgotten!!! 😠

-cyto

Only logical solution for me is: Malc is solely focused on Flowstone simply because it's the app with bigger earning opportunities and aimed to a way bigger consumer base than the "SynthMaker" thingy. I see no way how both applications could be maintained by such a small company. Since they're both obviously based on the same code it even doesn't make any sense to offer two packages with very similar content on one side but different marketing and pricing targets on the other side. So my guess what happens is: Sooner or later SM will be officially dropped. Up to that point Flowstone already contains much of the long awaited features from SM (it started right now with the Ruby stream integration) We'll get an crossgrade offer to Flowstone which in worst case will be significant higher than the initial crossgrade offer when Flowstone was introduced.

philter5 · 7 May 2012

cyto wrote: I generally don't like getting into these types of threads, but I saw this today...

from DSP Robotics Blog:

New - the Ruby module in FlowStone now supports MIDI in and out. This allows you to make accurate timing for things like sequencers etc.

How long have we been asking for something like this? I'm afraid we have officially been forgotten!!! 😠

-cyto

🙁 don´t know if that makes me happy or sad...

billv · 7 May 2012

stw wrote: So my guess what happens is: Sooner or later SM will be officially dropped

If that happens, does that mean we all move to the Flowstone Forum?? I don't care anymore if it gets updated, tired of waiting for it to happen. I'm sure I'll still be using SM in 20/30 years time anyway-as is if need be. What I NEED, is this forum, and 24/7 access to the brains and spirit that live in it. Trog pointed out somewhere else, and rightly so, that the users of SM are already doing 90% of the Updating anyway. So what this means to me is that where "all Shooting ourselves in the foot" by not taking advantage of the Wiki.( I know it all been said before, but.......) What we need is a small team of 3 or 4 "SM Gurus".Set up some posts in the Projects, where we can submit Modules. After the "Gurus" process the Module, they can then Publish it in the relevant Wiki section.In no time we'll have have massive database of modules to help keep SM alive. 😀 So who are the 3 or 4 "Gurus"??????........... 😕 What if we had a little competition amongst ourselves and "Create the Gurus" that way......like a high school test, but then we'd need a "SUPER-GURU" to write the Exam........ha ha ha 😈

cyto wrote: How long have we been asking for something like this? I'm afraid we have officially been forgotten!!!

Very interesting picture in your post.........

trogluddite · 7 May 2012

Yes, I think stw's point is very well made. While they may (seem to) have forgotten SM, the new developments in FS show that they have not forgotten audio DSP and MIDI. The only missing link in the chain is VST export. And stw is quite right, it makes sense for the dev's to leave such things to last, so that FS keeps its status as the "premium" application. From the start with FS, all the signs from OutSim were that they expected large numbers of SM users to crossgrade, and provide the 'seeds' for the FS userbase - and I think that between us we have made clear to them why this has not happened (no VST export etc.). Does it mean SM will die? - Who knows, but I don't think it is inevitable. It is easiest to develop a large all encompassing application and then remove parts not needed by a "lite" version. Keeping a more focused and cheaper version for specific applications can make sense as a way to generate extra revenue from users who's pockets are not deep enough for the "all singing, all dancing" premium product. Either way, the development effort put into Ruby Audio/MIDI does at least show that music production is seen by OutSim as a significant market for their products.

Tzarls · 7 May 2012

"Ok. Flowstone is ready - it has the Ruby primitive, the MIDI2Ruby2MIDI and stream2Ruby2stream primitives, the new even system. Let´s copy all source files to that other project folder..... change the "enableVSTexport" variable to "true", change the background color.... build the new app..... Great! SM 3.0 is ready!"

Wishful thinking... 🙂

CoreStyler · 8 May 2012

Tzarls wrote: "Ok. Flowstone is ready - it has the Ruby primitive, the MIDI2Ruby2MIDI and stream2Ruby2stream primitives, the new even system. Let´s copy all source files to that other project folder..... change the "enableVSTexport" variable to "true", change the background color.... build the new app..... Great! SM 3.0 is ready!"

Wishful thinking... 🙂

I will say that SM 3.0 is ready when also x64 plugin export is present. There are too many people running x64 host at the moment and cubase 6 bridge works too bad. I have really a huge number of 64bit plugin versions requests.

micron · 10 May 2012

the ruby module in flowstone is a little buggy and it doesn't work with most of the ruby gems. It has been promoted as a major paid upgrade for flowstone, but it's just a free and open source scripting language. About the bugs and the non working gems, the staff said that it is because of ruby not running fine on windows. So, ruby has been chosen as shortcut to add more functionality to flowstone, but why ruby if it is buggy under windows? Maybe python is a better choice for this kind of approach.

CoreStyler · 10 May 2012

micron wrote: the ruby module in flowstone is a little buggy and it doesn't work with most of the ruby gems. It has been promoted as a major paid upgrade for flowstone, but it's just a free and open source scripting language. About the bugs and the non working gems, the staff said that it is because of ruby not running fine on windows. So, ruby has been chosen as shortcut to add more functionality to flowstone, but why ruby if it is buggy under windows? Maybe python is a better choice for this kind of approach.

maybe is the flowstone compiler that is buggy.. don't know, but good if this will come in synthmaker too.

jjs · 10 May 2012

Wow did'nt expect that my post would have so much response so quick. But i really mean for you guys & dolls, there really need to be some kind of future minded 😍 update.

Seems weird to me if they don't see this thread at all.

Also very good posts i've red.

cheers

Disco_Steve · 11 May 2012

I feel I have got my fair share of value out of SM2

Give me all the funky ruby stuff and I'll pay for an upgrade. Am I a minority? There is money waiting for you OutSim.....

nix · 11 May 2012

Yep- I'll jump straight on coz of the ruby timing prim. http://www.dsprobotics.com/support/view ... f=63&t=480

philter5 · 11 May 2012

Disco_Steve wrote: I feel I have got my fair share of value out of SM2

Give me all the funky ruby stuff and I'll pay for an upgrade. Am I a minority? There is money waiting for you OutSim.....

word ! +1

CoreStyler · 11 May 2012

philter5 wrote: Disco_Steve wrote: I feel I have got my fair share of value out of SM2

Give me all the funky ruby stuff and I'll pay for an upgrade. Am I a minority? There is money waiting for you OutSim.....

word ! +1

jjs · 12 May 2012

Hi everybody,

i took the opportunity to contact the developers, via dsprobotics info, because it looked like this site was no longer looked at, and pointed them on this forum section. But they responded, thankfully, and they are aware of this thread, wich means they do monitor 😮 this forum and know everyones concerns. Understandable it is company policy to not involve in these discussions, as you can imagine everyone wants answers on hundreds of subjects.

Please be positive (like they are) and good (hopefully soon) will come ! 😀

That's all i can say.

nix · 12 May 2012

8D We will be driving our starships with these 2 proggies!

FreeRideSkier · 12 May 2012

Thanks JJS, that's a nice fact based post.

Less speculation and more fact please, talking of facts has anyone considered the fact that the audio & midi to ruby are not even released in FlowStone yet (I use both)! So one could speculate that they will be released in the next version of FlowStone, AND Synthmaker. Or the fact that if FlowStone is getting some cool audio developments that would benefit Synthmaker, this would bring the two products closer together and maybe if we are lucky we could get one super program called SynthFlow!

Exciting times and thanks JJS for your positive comments.

CoreStyler · 13 May 2012

Good to ear some. But about x64 plugins? nothing?

jjs · 14 May 2012

No promises. Just be positive, so have to be patient.

And for sure is they haven't forgotten Synthmaker, because they are aware what is happening here.

Maybe some good things are coming, who knows.

trogluddite · 14 May 2012

jjs wrote: Maybe some good things are coming, who knows.

Indeed - it could even be taken as a good sign that it is taking so long. I would much rather have rare, but comprehensive and well tested, updates than be paying every 6 months for "new" versions that offer nothing more than a change of GUI colour and couple of token features that will never get used. And I agree, when I have spoken to OutSim, I also get the impression that music making is not 'forgotten' - just a lower priority right now for commercial reasons. The educational market that they are looking to with FlowStone simply has far greater numbers of potential customers than VST plugin creation, so you can't really blame them for putting that first. The MIDI/Audio Ruby experiments certainly show that at least some of SM's shortcomings are in the crosshairs of their sights - and who else besides a musicians would need MIDI?

Until then, let's just keep venting out frustration here! 😈 😉 If I were OutSim, I would be immensely flattered by the passion for SM shown in these threads - despite all the problems we keep harping on about, so many of us are putting off learning the VST SDK, and tenaciously hanging in there for an upgrade. We don't want upgrades and fixes for SM because it is so bad - we want them because it is so good! It just needs the implementation to be the same quality as the truly excellent concept.

Warmonger · 14 May 2012

In my opinion there's no urgent need to expand Synthmaker, as it's already perfect. Minimal simplicity with endless possibilities and rapidly-growing library of components that cover pretty much every needed functionality and even more.

Surely it could get some improvements, but they are more like future directions than serious issues. 64-bit plugins are really not a must and won't offer anything new. Sync issues are important only in very specific applications.

The feature I'd like to see, however, is improved library manager. Possibility to sort, browse and distribute all components. Library export feature. An ability to download and share plugins with other members, so we don't need to add them one by one from osm to a big pile. A networking / sharing utilities are becoming popular in various applications recently and they are easily a hit. I'm saying this few days after game Portal 2 got map-sharing utility, which caused instant explosion of user's creativity.

CoreStyler · 14 May 2012

Warmonger wrote: In my opinion there's no urgent need to expand Synthmaker, as it's already perfect. Minimal simplicity with endless possibilities and rapidly-growing library of components that cover pretty much every needed functionality and even more.

Quote about the sharing utility. But this will make more work for devs. True. i not really need x64 plugin for personal use... But i need x64 plugin for final users since many people runs and like run 64bit Host, like cubase5/6... and they ask me 64 bit plugin! So, is just for making the plugin working for 64 bit host... since this is the direction of OS and Software. I have about 15 request of 64 bit version on 20 sales.

trogluddite · 14 May 2012

Yes, I can understand folks who make commercial plugins for sale wanting that stuff, even though it doesn't bother me personally a great deal. But I think Warmonger has a good point that the 'non-audio' features should not be forgotten. To be productive, you need not just the 'raw materials' but also the tools to put them together quickly and efficiently. Often, the things that bug me most are the little niggles that slow down the building process, and the lack of proper de-bugging tools. Things which would, incidentally, be equally applicable to FlowStone. For example... - Toolbox search that actually finds what I'm looking for! - Proper toolbox folder customisation (there were dinosaurs around when this was first requested!) - Search schematic for wireless links, module names, connector names etc. - De-bug window that can show chosen values anywhere in the schematic, not just the currently visible module. - Hover mouse over link - tooltip shows the value there. - Trigger tracker - send a trigger that will highlight the links that it travels to check for flow problems. - Spellchecking of ASM variables like the Code box does.

I can understand the idea that FS/SM are designed to be simple to learn - but, all the same, they are sold as 'visual programming' (FS even more so), so would benefit from equivalents to the kind of tools that would be expected of any other programming language. I'd gladly pay an upgrade fee just for some of those kind of features, simply to save the searching through modules and trial-and-error when bug-fixing that takes so much time away from making cool new stuff. (and that surely is not a good thing for a commercial developer too).

adamszabo · 16 May 2012

I just wish the devs would communicate with us. I think all we need is a "dont worry we are working on it", and everyone will calm down. The lack of communication just makes everyone think that its forgotten and an abandoned product.

CoreStyler · 16 May 2012

adamszabo wrote: I just wish the devs would communicate with us. I think all we need is a "dont worry we are working on it", and everyone will calm down. The lack of communication just makes everyone think that its forgotten and an abandoned product.

Exactly 😀

Xtinct · 16 May 2012

CoreStyler wrote: adamszabo wrote: I just wish the devs would communicate with us. I think all we need is a "dont worry we are working on it", and everyone will calm down. The lack of communication just makes everyone think that its forgotten and an abandoned product.

Exactly 😀

And if they did the next thread would be how long, followed by (kids in the car) are we there yet, followed by I can't wait any longer I'm moving to (insert alternative platform here) followed by a law suit for false promises. The reason they keep quiet, SM works as advertised, none of the features your asking for were advertised or promised when we all purchased SM yet we still bought it. SM2 was a nice suprise especially as it instantly fixed some of the problems of the project I was working on. I look forward to SM3 but I don't want to be told its coming and then wait and wait get told almost ready then get told theres been a problem and it will be another six months at least. Its a pity the forum doesn't have a section right at the top titled what SM can not do, ie 64 bit, poor animation etc that way prospective customers can read it and decide if SM is for them. Then if sales fall the devs can see whats putting people off rather than a bunch of whining customers 😉 because lets face it they have already got your money 😈

trogluddite · 16 May 2012

Xtinct wrote: (kids in the car) are we there yet

Ha Ha, ROFL 😀 That's why computer monitors need special coatings etc. to reduce glare - if they were shiny, all of us middle-aged computer 'professionals' (y'know with, like, our own banks accounts 'n' stuff) would be able to see the reflection of a spotty 13yr old staring back at us! 😉

It also struck me long ago that the "whining customers" (and I have done my share) are very likely one of the reasons that OutSim decided to 'rebrand' themselves when they released FS. We may well have much experience and many good lessons to teach new FS users - but many potential customers do check out user forums before deciding for sure (if they have any sense), and no company would want that "first contact" to be darkened by an atmosphere of pessimism. The world of commerce mean they have got to think like that...

Could be we only have ourselves to blame if we have been given the cold shoulder. But, personally, I don't think that is the case. Xtiinct is quite right to point out that being open about development is a can of worms - once something is said, it takes on a life of its own, and there is no CTRL-Z button to erase people's memory of a rashly made promise. If they came and explained their reasoning behind the silence, even that would become just another controversy to debate. If you want to get an idea how nasty this can get, go visit the 'SketchUcation' forum for users of the SketchUp 3D software. The current owners, Google, are in negotiations to possibly sell the software, along with its development team. The thread about this is now dozens of pages long - one of the dev' guys has bravely jumped in a couple of times, but can't say anything that doesn't kick off yet another sh*tstorm despite being as diplomatic as he possibly can be. There are even disgruntled ex-employees of the potential buyers chipping in - whether the dire warnings have any substance or not, the whole things is really not pretty!

I'd love it too if OutSim dropped by the forum to say "Hi" - but when I've asked about this, they have explicitly said that they now see this as an independent forum run by and for the users (since long before the time of FS). If you look at their members profile (admin) you'll see that they do come and have a look every week or two - but just how much time do we want them to take out of the development effort to come here and defend every last decision they make? At least there is no pressure or heavy handed moderation to keep posts favourable to the company as there is with some "official" support forums - we can and do speak freely (spammers excepted!!).

They may well already have our money, but I have seen no slacking in OutSim's commitment to support individual SM users with 'problem' schematics or suspected bugs (just this week, Tester posted with Malc's solution to the "Random number problem"). However slight a "silver lining" that might seem to some people (myself at times), it shows that we are still considered part of the company's user base - but there are times when any parent needs to send the kids outside to play so they can get on with the serious stuff free from distraction.

And don't forget the old saying... "A watched pot never boils!" 😉

Xtinct · 16 May 2012

This is why I put My 2 peneth worth in, alomost everyday we get updates whether its malc solving Testers problems, or some one on the forum coming up with something new or a work around to an old problem, I see a new post and think wow 😀 new stuff then see its a complaint 🙁 and my heart sinks, like telling a child Santa's dead, please don't do that 🙁 for all us children. (40+ 😉 )

attic · 16 May 2012

are we there yet

Lol ... So true.

many potential customers do check out user forums

I decided to buy SM after reading the Forum for a few hours, so that definitely happens. I wanted to know if I was going to be on a dead platform ... like Commodore, Atari St, Multimedia Builder or Logic Pro after they killed it for the PC.

billv · 16 May 2012

CoreStyler wrote: But i need x64 plugin for final users since many people runs and like run 64bit Host

Yeh I'm a bit confused here on your need for 64 Bit. Went through that 64 bit issue with malc a few weeks ago with my X11FL Synth.64 Bit dll issue It was tested by SM and Image Line on 64 Bit and it's all good. So I thought the "building in SM, and using the final result in 64 bit", was a solved issue. Why is it a problem at your end?

Warmonger wrote: no urgent need to expand Synthmaker, as it's already perfect. Minimal simplicity with endless possibilities

That's another reason why it will never die.

trogluddite wrote: they now see this as an independent forum run by and for the users

More reason to expand the wiki like I said earlier.

Xtinct · 16 May 2012

I think its because the forum has become a kind of wiki which would be fine if topics were clearly labeled. instead of 'help' should be 'lfo timing help' or such like. I can't tell you the number of times I've searched for some thing on the forum that I know is there but is labeled so badly I can't find it (even after 200 results) We should really use the wiki to its fullest or at least label our posts with in a logical way. problem lfo problem solved lfo new lfo etc 90% of development is through the forum we should at least make it easy for each other to find. 😍 oh crap i sound like a hippy be back after I've had a word with my self 😈 OMG just realised Infusion been telling us all along in his tag line. Need help? First search the forum & WiKi, then post in the help forum with a clear topic, request, & OSM. Then please WiKi the correct solution.

infuzion · 17 May 2012

attic wrote: I wanted to know if I was going to be on a dead platform ... like Commodore, Atari St, Multimedia Builder or Logic Pro after they killed it for the PC.

I got so mad that once I got a grip on ARexx the Amiga was left to die, like a beautiful beached dolphin.

Well, I installed SM on my i7 laptop to show off a super-charged multi-band expander/compressor/limiter/gate, & SM kept crashing after a few minutes.

PS C:\Program Files (x86)\ move SM H:\hell /me unplug USB H: drive /me burns USB drive

Well, I have a RL friend who tried SM, & found SE to be much better environment. I said, "Should learn JUCE, since it covers ALL plugins for OSX & Win, iOS & Android... Win 32bit is only like 10% of the paying market..."

CoreStyler · 18 May 2012

Xtinct wrote: I think its because the forum has become a kind of wiki which would be fine if topics were clearly labeled. instead of 'help' should be 'lfo timing help' or such like. I can't tell you the number of times I've searched for some thing on the forum that I know is there but is labeled so badly I can't find it (even after 200 results) We should really use the wiki to its fullest or at least label our posts with in a logical way. problem lfo problem solved lfo new lfo etc 90% of development is through the forum we should at least make it easy for each other to find. 😍 oh crap i sound like a hippy be back after I've had a word with my self 😈 OMG just realised Infusion been telling us all along in his tag line. Need help? First search the forum & WiKi, then post in the help forum with a clear topic, request, & OSM. Then please WiKi the correct solution.

That's why i created synthmakers.net

dutchound · 5 Jun 2012

cant they just make it a flawless program where it's impossible write graphics that does 1fps even if you are a casual user, and an event routing that runs at hopped sample accuracy, and can trigger anything and flow bakc and forth through any modules like in reaktor, which frankly is flawless except for SM's interface is miles better, and SM's website is better, and SM's perks are better, but the engine seems to be abit of a timewaster in some ways cos it's just too limited or complicated, one or the other.

attic · 5 Jun 2012

I got so mad that once I got a grip on ARexx the Amiga was left to die, like a beautiful beached dolphin.

You and me both! I still have an Amiga in the garage hooked up with a copy of Bars & Pipes.

jjs · 6 Jun 2012

attic wrote: I got so mad that once I got a grip on ARexx the Amiga was left to die, like a beautiful beached dolphin.

You and me both! I still have an Amiga in the garage hooked up with a copy of Bars & Pipes.

whaaaoooh! i had the 500, the 600 (that was a really shit machine) and then a 1200 again (great machine only stupid they did not 16bit sound, it was allready available at that time). Sold all of them,i've got to cry now.....I still have my Sony HitBit HB-75P MSX-1 machine, still works great! hahahaha. All the speed they brought in new machines today is all consumed by the softwares. i could almost do anything with my 486 and pentium machines as i can now do with these ultra blasting fast machines today. Of course rendering takes more time. but reall time music was easy possible at 16bit 44.1khz and even 96khz24bit with my Terratec 64XL sampling card.

oops getting off topic here sorry.

So how long do we have too wait for some news? People are patient, but this is not giving any hope anymore just to say,be positive...

CoreStyler · 10 Jun 2012

Actually FS has a bad user-base and u get no support

trogluddite · 10 Jun 2012

CoreStyler wrote: Actually FS has a bad user-base and u get no support

Hadn't looked over there for a while, but is sure does seem a bit quiet. Also noticed while I was there, the new 'rental' style user licence. Have to be honest, that would put me right off straight away. To me, you are only ever going to get value for money that way if the updates keep coming thick and fast - if the upgrades slow to a crawl like they have for SM, that is really not going to look like a good deal for long-term users. And I'm not even sure I always want the 'latest version' - I never use 'auto-updates' for anything (except virus signatures on my netbook), precisely because it is so common for there to be new bugs introduced; I'd rather take upgrades at my own pace so that I can be sure of a stable system. The software also has to check its license key against the DSPr servers every time you open the software - no thanks, my Q6700 runs faster than a lot of folks i7's precisely because it is never on line, so there are no firewalls, malware/anti-virus etc. constantly bugging the CPU in the background.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I like to save my pennies, purchase something, and then know that it is mine, and that I then have those current capabilities forever. The idea that my software could be disabled or downgraded at some later time because I can't keep up the payments, or the bank screws up the money transfer - yuck!

philter5 · 10 Jun 2012

trogluddite wrote: ....'rental' style user licence

that´s really a pain in the ass, exactly like the Export credits for EXE´s. i mean if EVERY export would costs me extra money and every updated version of my exe has to be payed BEFORE REALLY TESTED ?????? pffff 😠 PERHAPS it would make sense to give the free user only a restricted or watermarked exe eport until the user has proved that it is stable and then he can get a watermark-free/unrestricted exe for a SMALL amount of money. but the actual solution is ähhhmmm.....let´s say: ....no don´t say it philter..... 😀 even a FS beginner (to which the free versions aim) has to buy 5 credits before he can TRY the export feature.???? 😝 ..

MegaHurtz · 10 Jun 2012

I do like to meet up here tho.. "Glad you came when there were issues right" 🙂 Still like what`s there but like to see some more progress as well tho..

jjs · 15 Jun 2012

Life is not the opposite of Death Death is the opposite of Birth Life is eternal...

(from Anathema)

Life finds a way... (from Jurrasic Parc 1 - Jeff Goldblum)

So there is Genera...

adamszabo · 16 Jun 2012

I have been gettin in touch with Malc about a bug and he was kind enough to help me, and I am not authorised to talk about the details but from our chat I got the impression that the software is not "dead" so I am confident that we will see updates in the future.

jjs · 16 Jun 2012

I know, in the email i had, they mentioned to be positive. So most of the SM enthusiastics here probably do, but running out of patience i think. Also there is no little light shown to keep anyone hangin' in. Except for Genera there is not much more available which give some new things, also SE is allready a long time busy to get an update out (and also nothing is mentioned on their site either) according the forums. So i guess they know that most people who really want will eventually return.

But for people who want to make their own sample players or synths with sampled material and wanting thei own GUI and want win/mac compatibility, Maize Sampler could (with a few adaptions in to how samples are being played) easily win from SM on sampling terrain.

SE is also much more better in sample handling as it read and treats the sample the way it should, SM still can't do that.

But we have to wait because SM is so much fun to use !

attic · 16 Jun 2012

SE is also much more better in sample handling as it read and treats the sample the way it should, SM still can't do that.

But we have to wait because SM is so much fun to use !

Amen to that brother. Except Maize is to simplistic right now and its development is anything but fast. SE Also has its problems ... for one the soundfont method is a bit old and in my opinion streaming is a must. However CK IE(Chriss Kerry http://www.chriskerry.f9.co.uk/CK_Modules.html) offers a purchasable sample system that is not perfect but allows for more to be done in the SE environment. SM has the perfect Visual Metaphor and creation of graphical control happens with ease here. Alas the dependance on old graphic technology eats cpu badly since there is no acceleration method. SM is fun and relatively approachable for even new users however the gotchas that you run into in later development can really kill its appeal. I think OutSim could fix these things but the will to do it seems missing. Development of a Ruby module has had my hopes up but do we see any movement of this to SM?

This is interesting, but very light on details. http://www.coretalk.net/

jjs · 16 Jun 2012

Thanks for the links mate! really interresting !

Nu Audio Science · 17 Jun 2012

SM has been dead a while now and FS is headed down the same route, i suspect the only income generated by either of these now is FL SM, the devs have a long protruded history of making bad design choices "Separating SM/FS" "No SDK" "Going after the robotics market and not the mobile phone app market <<<< seriously this one decision alone would have bankers coming after you with a shotgun, no FS for mobile hahahahahaha damn" the list really does go on.

SM is what it is, when it went to v2 nothing was added that most of us didn't already have for 3 or more years, there is nothing of value coming from the devs so just enjoy it for what it is and just have a good laugh once in a while at how much money the devs and all of us could be making if SM/FS did mobile apps hahahahaha

CoreStyler · 17 Jun 2012

Nu Audio Science wrote: SM has been dead a while now and FS is headed down the same route, i suspect the only income generated by either of these now is FL SM, the devs have a long protruded history of making bad design choices "Separating SM/FS" "No SDK" "Going after the robotics market and not the mobile phone app market <<<< seriously this one decision alone would have bankers coming after you with a shotgun, no FS for mobile hahahahahaha damn" the list really does go on.

Yes true.. Mobiles phones now mean "computer" since when i was young i played games, do a lot of thing with P1 133mhz! Now mobiles had multi-core, cores at 1-2 ghz?? WTF. Is a good market sure. And.... portability ( to Mac app like Au) export possiblities ( VST 2.4/3.x, Au, Exe, Exec. for mac, IOS app, Android App, Windows phone..) an new graphic library that is cross platforms (like openGL? is free) no more dependancy to Windows x86.. (primtives for it are cool, but not required)... and ruby? Sure.. all that will benefit SM and FS too...

jjs · 17 Jun 2012

There is also another good thing they could add and maybe instead of Ruby. A language wich is developed on a university in Brazil, but i can't remember the name, damn... I saw it this week, have to check all my history hopefully i can find it back. It is also a supporting laguage and sometimes also used together with Ruby, also used for a few game engines if remember correct.

will come back to this one, unless anyone else knows what i mean.

CoreStyler · 18 Jun 2012

jjs wrote: There is also another good thing they could add and maybe instead of Ruby. A language wich is developed on a university in Brazil, but i can't remember the name, damn... I saw it this week, have to check all my history hopefully i can find it back. It is also a supporting laguage and sometimes also used together with Ruby, also used for a few game engines if remember correct.

will come back to this one, unless anyone else knows what i mean.

http://www.lua.org/about.html

You are talking surely of Lua... Is a programming language that you can use in CryEngine 3 and other engines. Made in Brazill... nananana

attic · 18 Jun 2012

Overtone http://overtone.github.com/blog.html

Tzarls · 18 Jun 2012

CoreStyler wrote: jjs wrote: There is also another good thing they could add and maybe instead of Ruby. A language wich is developed on a university in Brazil, but i can't remember the name, damn... I saw it this week, have to check all my history hopefully i can find it back. It is also a supporting laguage and sometimes also used together with Ruby, also used for a few game engines if remember correct.

will come back to this one, unless anyone else knows what i mean.

http://www.lua.org/about.html

You are talking surely of Lua... Is a programming language that you can use in CryEngine 3 and other engines. Made in Brazill... nananana

Lua... I think there were some posts about a possible integration of LUA into SM?

jjs · 18 Jun 2012

CoreStyler wrote: http://www.lua.org/about.html

You are talking surely of Lua... Is a programming language that you can use in CryEngine 3 and other engines. Made in Brazill... nananana

Yes you're the man, that is exaclty what i mean, could'nt find anymore... Maybe that gives better options then Ruby? or maybe both, there both free to use.

In fact: Lua is distributed in a small package and builds out-of-the-box in all platforms that have a standard C compiler. Lua runs on all flavors of Unix, Windows, mobile devices (running Android, iOS, BREW, Symbian, Windows Phone), embedded microprocessors (such as ARM and Rabbit, for applications like Lego MindStorms), IBM mainframes, etc.

So in my opinion you hit it all!

jjs · 18 Jun 2012

attic wrote: Overtone http://overtone.github.com/blog.html

Sorry it was not what i ment, but looks also promising but i'm not quit sure how to use or implement it, looks in pre-stage.

Nu Audio Science · 19 Jun 2012

LUA was implemented in Synthmaker a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago and Jorge even showed examples of it in SMX, never appeared and shortly after that Jorge never appeared again, simply put SM is what it is (As i keep saying) If it isn't enough then move to synthedit or start using C++ because SM is really going nowhere 😉

philter5 · 19 Jun 2012

for some people (or at least me 🙂 ) it´s not only a "IS-SM-DEAD?" question..... but i´ll leave it with a few sentences:

okay we now know we will get no promises for future development and so on... not good but i have to live with. but IF this is FACT (i don´t know as all NEWS come from Users but not from the dev] why can´t they tell us directly? or is even this too much promise? but i think it´s not worth to be angry about that, i will now start SM and build some stuff and have my fun 😀

hqappy Synthmaking

Tzarls · 19 Jun 2012

I think the real problem here is that SM stopped being profitable... I mean, how many new user do we see each month? Is the income generated by SM enough to pay for more developing hours? The FL thing, and then the Flowstone thing are good signs of this - trying to find more ways to sell the same thing, basically.

Now, it´s not something exclusive to SM. Take, for example, Synthedit. Jeff McClintock has been working on it for more than 20 years! And only recently it attained "version 1" status. Even the web site says "Copyright © 2011"... Is he selling enough to pay monthly bills without doing anything else, like some regular-boring-office-stuff taht takes him away from his SE developing PC? Appart from the fact that no matter how much you love developing your system, after 20 years you have to be a little bit tired of it! (Now that I think of it.... isn´t SM like 10 years old now?)

And the cause behind the real problem is the business model... how many times can you sell the same piece of software to the same person, in order to keep cash coming in to make a profit out of developing said piece of software? IK-Multimedia released Sampletank for Iphone. So they found a way to sell the same piece of software to a new market, and probably to the same people who already had Sampletank for PC. Heck, it´s only a couple of bucks, why don´t buy it again? The same applies to Amplitube. And my guess is that the guys at Outsim tried something along these lines, first with the FL thing, then with Flowstone (trying to sell basically the same thing to a new market and maybe to the same people) and then with SM2.0, which to me, was a joke. There were no additions in the 2.0 version that couldn´t be incorporated to the 1.1.7 version. But they needed to sell the same thing, so it was like "let´s give it a paint job", even when under the hood it was just the same old SM we all know and love. And I´ll take my chances by saying it didn´t work as expected.

Now, many people have said that they would pay for an upgrade if just to keep SM alive... why don´t take advantage of such idea and change the business model? I´ve been thinking of this myself (many of you know that I´m developing a graphical programming system called Genera) because, as much as I love working on it, I need cash to pay the bills and keep the children and the wife happy. And if they´re not happy, I won´t be able to develop my system, then I won´t be happy either. And my customers won´t be happy..... you now the story. So instead of making the app the main income generator, why not turn it into the kickstarter and let the community itself be the income generator?

Would something like this work, for SM, SE and the like? (yes, Genera too). The main app costs way less than the current price. Say, instead of paying almost $300 for the top version of SM ($69 in the case of SE) you pay around

0 monthly (unless you purchased the special offer which was

00 for the app and a 1 year subscription.... 😉 ). So even if after the initial period there are no more sales, the income generated by the subscription model could be enough to sustain development of the app, if only for a little longer period than with the current model. Because cash would be still being generated, giving the developer the ability to pay some of the bills, keeping the kids and the wife happy... keeping himself happy. And the costumers too.

What do you think? Would that have worked better for Outsim, Synthmaker and the community?

DigitalWhiteByte · 19 Jun 2012

Tzarls wrote: What do you think? Would that have worked better for Outsim, Synthmaker and the community?

My opinion: Pay the application once and have updates for life and the evil of today. you should pay each time you release a new version with new features, of course after making a stable and bug-free version. But, since today is so wide that you can use a product like that in my opinion, you should be able to pay what you are interested.

First example: the developer creates a module that allows you to use your network? If you need this functionality buy it, otherwise not.

Second example: Listen and focus on the features most requested by users, so as to invest them with a possible subscription. so prepay. But how to be sure that this feature will really developed after paying? This is the legal side difficult. Then create a development system for a possible request, assess how many hours would seize to cost and give users the option to pay for that development.

focus on very little money but lots of users. then everything would be happy.

tester · 19 Jun 2012

For "dead" keyword I recommend "exploring the afterlife" connection 😉

SM isn't too big/extensive environment to play with options yet. If they try to push too far - they fail; existing competition wins plus some new (and maybe less usable) systems made by frustrated folks appear on the market, plus - we don't know how the market will change (ipads and so on) meanwhile.

Tzarls · 20 Jun 2012

DigitalWhiteByte wrote: First example: the developer creates a module that allows you to use your network? If you need this functionality buy it, otherwise not.

The problem with this is that it will probably break the possibility of sharing schematics the way we do today.

DigitalWhiteByte wrote: Second example: Listen and focus on the features most requested by users, so as to invest them with a possible subscription. so prepay. But how to be sure that this feature will really developed after paying? This is the legal side difficult. Then create a development system for a possible request, assess how many hours would seize to cost and give users the option to pay for that development.

focus on very little money but lots of users. then everything would be happy.

We´ve had a suggestions thread... how many of those suggestions were actually developed? Right, there has been no payment involved, maybe if they introduced some kind of "pay per feature" system... Hey, that would be interesting! A list of features, each with the option to "donate". Once a feature request reaches a certain economic goal, it begins to be developed and then released for benefit of the whole community.

Still, I wonder why things like VST2.4 (really, not that hard to implement) were never addressed. And why the (old) new event system was never included in the app - we saw it working in SM-X, so the code was there....

DigitalWhiteByte · 20 Jun 2012

Tzarls wrote: DigitalWhiteByte wrote: First example: the developer creates a module that allows you to use your network? If you need this functionality buy it, otherwise not.

The problem with this is that it will probably break the possibility of sharing schematics the way we do today.

is true, but for me this sounds like an incentive to always have an updated application. So to have a selection in a natural way, between professional users and novice users. so will the user to define the functionality of its application by investing in what they really need.

Then if a user wants all the features developed, or Buy them all, or expect a new version complete with everything being made but at a higher cost.

Tzarls wrote: We´ve had a suggestions thread... how many of those suggestions were actually developed? Right, there has been no payment involved, maybe if they introduced some kind of "pay per feature" system... Hey, that would be interesting! A list of features, each with the option to "donate". Once a feature request reaches a certain economic goal, it begins to be developed and then released for benefit of the whole community..

I'm glad you like my idea. 😀

trogluddite · 20 Jun 2012

Tzarls wrote: A list of features, each with the option to "donate".

Do I get my money back if I 'donate' to a feature which is then not implemented? 😈

DigitalWhiteByte wrote: If you need this functionality buy it, otherwise not.

That, yes, and I suggested it to the dev's directly at the time of FS release. I do not wish to make robots (cats are much more fun - he he), but I would like to tinker with networks. Likewise some FS users may have a use for VST export. Such an "a la carte" system has always seemed eminently sensible to me - there are some FS features I would gladly pay a reasonable fee to have - but I cannot justify to myself the expense of the complete package.

Tzarls wrote: The problem with this is that it will probably break the possibility of sharing schematics the way we do today.

I am less sure of this - users who desired similar features would likely purchase similar add-ons. The only caveat is that downloading a schematic including an "optional" module should not disable the entire schematic, only that part containing the extra goodies - and the modularity of designing in SM lends itself to this. For example, if I do not have the 'network access pack', I can still play with a synth that includes those modules - I still get the sounds, the presets, user interface, etc. but can't share patches over a network (if that were important to me, then I would have bought the add-on pack too). And this would only apply to the source schematics - a downloaded VST or .exe would still be fully featured, as those options are embedded into the export.

Tzarls · 20 Jun 2012

trogluddite wrote: Tzarls wrote: A list of features, each with the option to "donate".

Do I get my money back if I 'donate' to a feature which is then not implemented? 😈

It depends on how the system works. If it´s like Kickstarter, then you won´t get a refund becuse you never got charged when you ommited to pay. Your credit card/paypal/Amazon/etc. is charged only when the goal is reached.

Or the developers could give the possibility of redirecting funds to some other feature request instead of a refund. Or maybe something like a multi-choice sponsorship - you select 3 features you´d like to see implemented. Your money goes to the 3. The first feature to reach the goal gets the funds, the other 2 back to square 1.... it could get fun (or frustrating....).

trogluddite wrote: Tzarls wrote: The problem with this is that it will probably break the possibility of sharing schematics the way we do today.

Unless you download an schematic which uses the "multi touch" pack, which you don´t have. Then you can´t use the controls because that synth uses a multitouch GUI. Of course you can always buy the pack to be able to use the synth, but I can see lots of frustration posts because of things like this.

Now, and only if thing works the way I think they work inside SM, here´s a solution to this dilemma:

I´m quite sure that in order to render an schematic to VST or standalone the included vst.dll and exe.dll files have to include every primitive in existence. In fact, I think they´re just kind of clones of the main app, without the GUI and with the specific implementation for being a plugin or a standalone (ever tried to rename the exe.dll to exe.exe and execute it? 😉 ) So let´s say you download an schematic with the network pack, which you haven´t bought. You open the schematic and you find that you can play with the osm, and you even get the network primitives working (so you can try them and later buy them because they´re great!) but you won´t be able to copy/paste such primitives. And you won´t be able to export to VST or standalone unless you activate the pack by buying it. And when you buy the pack you don´t even have to download anything new (unless it´s a pack that´s just included in the latest version of SM which you never downloaded). You just enter the activation code and the new items appear in the toolbox. That I think could work.

trogluddite · 20 Jun 2012

Tzarls wrote: I´m quite sure that in order to render an schematic to VST or standalone the included vst.dll and exe.dll files have to include every primitive

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself too well. The 'extra' modules would only be needed when sharing schematics here on the forum between fellow developers to look inside. If the download will be used only to render an exported plugin, it is easy enough to share the .dll or .exe file which will have the developers 'extras' already embedded. Relatively few posts are complete plugins anyway - to me, the main benefit of posting schematics is to share our 'tools', show examples, and learn new skills.

In a sense, this issue does already exist to a small degree. For example, I have some plugins posted here that can only be used fully if you have a soundcard with many inputs/outputs - and many here would be quite impractical for a user who has no access to a good ASIO driver, a very large monitor., or a particular controller/hardware synth. But that does not stop us from downloading them and looking inside to learn - and as SM users we can then adapt them to suit our own system.

To take up your multi-touch example - if the mouse is not supported, the plugin is then only useful to users who have a multi-touch screen - precisely the same SM users most likely to also have those extensions. So users without such a screen would not be losing out - the plugin is of no use to them anyway. A considerate developer would think to include 'legacy' support for users who needed to use a mouse, anyway - it is only necessary that the lack of extensions does not break the default functions.

An analogy would be text documents - I may not have all of the fonts used in the original file, but as long as there are sensible defaults, I can still read the words.

CoreStyler · 20 Jun 2012

For me is better to do that. Decrease Synthmaker price, and turn it as a subscription. Subscription of the whole software cost exactly like the Enterprise version, and you re-pay any year to get latest version. Then developers do a thing like KickStarter (a lot of script do that) where people can add new-features to develop. Then when goal reached, OutSim take our money and add the new functionalities to the software. Also for who haven't bid for the feature. [and this solve the problem of community/opening of OSM]. By that way, they will get an income annually (depending of purchase date) and they can be sure that Synthmaker has an icome and then develop and make software growing.

Some features are really needed here. What i need (and many too) is to make at the moment SM more compatible with new machines and softwares! and portability. I LIKE WHAT SM DO AT THE MOMENT AND CAN DO BUT SOME FEATURES ARE NEEDED FOR WHO, LIKE ME, SELL PLUGINS! SO: - VST 2.4-3.x EXPORT - X64 Native Plugins THEN: - MAC EXPORT AU PLUGINS INSIDE WINDOWS

AND WHERE IS SM-X? i want to see!

tester · 21 Jun 2012

No subscription mode like they made in FS. It's the worst case scenario. Subscription mode forces you to plan whether you will work this month with app or not. It's craziness. No joy of playing with app.

Tzarls · 21 Jun 2012

I wasn´t proposing a subscription for the app, but one for the community - the forum.

CoreStyler · 21 Jun 2012

tester wrote: No subscription mode like they made in FS. It's the worst case scenario. Subscription mode forces you to plan whether you will work this month with app or not. It's craziness. No joy of playing with app.

Monthly subscriptions does. but annuary subs not. Infact is = at the present deal but you need to pay each year instead of a single purchase.

CoreStyler · 21 Jun 2012

CoreStyler wrote: tester wrote: No subscription mode like they made in FS. It's the worst case scenario. Subscription mode forces you to plan whether you will work this month with app or not. It's craziness. No joy of playing with app.

Monthly subscriptions does. but annuary subs not. Infact is = at the present deal but you need to pay each year instead of a single purchase.

So if 100$ year, if you use SM for 3 year they got 300$. Then if you play with it 10 year they get 1000$. A sub can be done for 2 year for example. Monthly subs kills and cost much, if a solution like FS will be done here i will quit using SM.

tester · 21 Jun 2012

I prefer it simple: "pay and forget". By subscribing, I'm connecting my self to a company too close. It adds for example one more task to remember and deal with (obligations), and this is kind of trafic I don't like (i.e. it's not the money, but the fact that you wander around your obligations). Or to continue - just when you need it - you don't have the internet under your hand (yep) to pay, you need to do something right now, and you don't have operational software. So - pay and forget, no social media like this. 😉

trogluddite · 21 Jun 2012

That's my feeling too - but I suspect that opinions might differ somewhat between professionals and hobbyists. As a hobbyist myself, I have no idea when or for how much time I will use SM - leading to exactly the "Oh, shit, I didn't pay my subscription" situation you describe, for example, after a break to pursue another hobby. For a professional developer who will use their tools every day, software is just another business expense to be dealt with like any other - and spreading the expense over time potentially makes budgeting easier. Professional developers are potentially more lucrative for OutSim, as they can more easily justify a greater expense and repeated purchases (to be recouped through sales). However, these are precisely the people that SM does not serve well any more, it s just too far behind the times. Even if they personally think that e.g. 64bit, VST3.0 are 'gimmicks', their customers may well not agree - and they must bow to their customers' demands in order to succeed.

And there is one huge point that I haven't seen addressed in previous posts - just how big is this market? Not for plugins themselves (which can be made in many ways), but for a graphical development platform to create them. I suspect that it is not very large at all - and low volume sales require premium pricing in order to be economic. I imagine that this is precisely the thinking behind the release of FlowStone - we are entitled to our opinions about how they handled the implementation and marketing, but there is no denying that the potential applications of FS cover a far wider potential user base than a VST IDE is ever going to.

As a 'tinkerer', I will continue to use SM because it is comfortable, the end results suit my needs, and the financial costs are already in the past - just as I continue to use my celluloid film cameras, bent screwdrivers and caffeine-stained coffee mugs. But if I were a novice to DSP checking out the options, or intended to market the end results to make a living, I suspect that I would judge SM very differently... ...and those are the folks that OutSim need to win over for SM to be financially viable - for we are too few in number to effect much difference no matter what marketing model they employ.

Nu Audio Science · 24 Jun 2012

So is it being suggested that you would like to give more money to a developer who has not updated the app for a year, in the blind hope that they might update the app ? Isn't it very obvious at this point that the developers have zero interest in SM anymore and it is what it is, use it as it is, because it is not going anywhere, it has zero sales because in all honesty in 2012 it is next to useless for much more than tinkering (Not particularly in my eyes but in terms of usability as a commercial package in a world where no OSX and no X64 pretty much means no sales)

As has been suggested now a few times, the only option that could possibly be of any use is this :

Contact Imageline and get them to back a move which would buy up the whole package of SM from the developers and move it to an open source package, this is the only way you are ever going to see large steps forward in development 😉

CoreStyler · 24 Jun 2012

Nu Audio Science wrote: So is it being suggested that you would like to give more money to a developer who has not updated the app for a year, in the blind hope that they might update the app ? Isn't it very obvious at this point that the developers have zero interest in SM anymore and it is what it is, use it as it is, because it is not going anywhere, it has zero sales because in all honesty in 2012 it is next to useless for much more than tinkering (Not particularly in my eyes but in terms of usability as a commercial package in a world where no OSX and no X64 pretty much means no sales)

As has been suggested now a few times, the only option that could possibly be of any use is this :

This will be really cool. And i like Image-line.

Tzarls · 24 Jun 2012

Nu Audio Science wrote: So is it being suggested that you would like to give more money to a developer who has not updated the app for a year, in the blind hope that they might update the app ?

Well, it was more in the line of "what they should have done different in order to make this work"...

pall · 25 Jun 2012

We as users of paid software, we can ask the developers of their intentions regarding future of this software, and what we can expect. After that we could talk about what we can do.

CoreStyler · 25 Jun 2012

pall wrote: We as users of paid software, we can ask the developers of their intentions regarding future of this software, and what we can expect. After that we could talk about what we can do.

But will be nice if they don't be ghost and come here to talk about, not just private replies.

trogluddite · 25 Jun 2012

pall wrote: We as users of paid software, we can ask the developers of their intentions regarding future of this software, and what we can expect. After that we could talk about what we can do.

It is "After that" already - I have asked them before, and made suggestions too, and I am fairly certain that I am not the only one. As I have said before, they will indicate nothing except for an assurance that SM is not forgotten, in e-mails, on the forum, or anywhere else. My gut feeling (and that is all it is, just a hunch) is that they will only return to SM development if and when they have sufficient success with other things to spare the resources. They are a very small company in a market dominated by giants - in that situation, it is wise to be a little paranoid, and potentially foolish to reveal even the smallest detail which could be exploited by competitors; so I do not think that their silence is really so mysterious. Nor are we in a position to change the situation - they own the intellectual rights to SM (which is a huge chunk of the FS code), and it would not be good business for them to let go of that as long as there is even the smallest chance of capitalising upon it in the future. I seriously doubt that we are sufficient in number, or have deep enough pockets, to offer the kind of financial investment that would really make any impact (there may be many registered users, but it is the same handful who have kept this thread going for so long). We have spent our money for what we have already, and have lodged our concerns with the developers. I can see no other form of protest that would not harm the only people currently in a position to develop what we have asked for.

Que sera, sera. Whatever will be, will be...

To anyone who is desperate for better features and compatability, I can only ask; how much C++ could you have learned while you have been twiddling your thumbs waiting?

stw · 25 Jun 2012

WORD !!

Xtinct · 25 Jun 2012

FFS let it go 🙁

CoreStyler · 26 Jun 2012

I not fear C++, but this will make things really more complicated, since you spend a lot of time fixing quotes or bad instrunctions. And UI will be a lot more complicaed. Maybe writing a stereo delay will not be so strong, but redesign my new synth Domins or Hardcore Kicks VSTi 2 will take years. 🙁

Nubeat7 · 26 Jun 2012

@ corerstyler: i think before you learn c++ there will be another solution on the graphical programming sector

how it is already been said here - there are already some other solutions like usine (which has great potencial) or PD ... also SE will not die i think - its just a question of time and one of the already known or some new one will make a big step

also DAWs like bitwig want to include modular building fx and instruments and for sure NI is not sleeping...

and i think something will (should) happen soon in this market - i really hope that SM will play than in the upper league..

Nu Audio Science · 26 Jun 2012

trogluddite wrote: They are a very small company in a market dominated by giants - in that situation, it is wise to be a little paranoid, and potentially foolish to reveal even the smallest detail which could be exploited by competitors; so I do not think that their silence is really so mysterious.

No disrespect meant here, but that is utter garbage, there are zero giants in the save as vst world, in fact if anything outsim where the giants, they dropped the ball masively when they had the chance to grab MAXs market, they dropped the ball massively when they went for a super limited robotics market rather than the mobile market, in fact it has to be said that outsim have literally zero credibility at all when it comes to making business decisions and at this point they have devalued their own intelectual property and will be bought out at some point by IL anyway (Much like myself and others postulated hen the IL deal happened, IL don't mess around they just buy engulf and delete)

CoreStyler · 26 Jun 2012

I think modular environment is a step for me. [and im noob also in this 🙂 ] Programming is complex, will requires time. But i'm actually reading many "basics" tutorials of c++ and synthmaker concept simplified me many things about programming thinking. I looked for alternatives, but for what i found there's no replacement of synthmaker at this moment. [i never used reaktor, but is a closed system]. PD to VSTi does not convices me a lot. And for what i read, is not the same thing of synthmaker but is sure more like a code c++ programming. Seems that you need to code for extending it and pd vst seem dead. SE is surely a good choise. But also here, c++ is the base. So you need to know c++ or you can't do nothing execpt buying/downloading modules.. and use stock ones. GUI is orrible compared to SM.

SM has the key of success for me; is easier than others, powerful and allow a great level of abstraction also if is a VPL. But, technology changes, and to be on top you need to have a program that use current generation tech. And, for me FS is a crap. Since there are many robots VPL better and surely more developed like Microsoft VPL. Don't know what kind of market can fit. Robots for home? Sure an engineer will not use it for an industrial robot.

Instead music is not always made by engineers but by artist too. And sometimes artist have better ideas than "math minded people".

jjs · 26 Jun 2012

CoreStyler wrote: Robots for home? Sure an engineer will not use it for an industrial robot.

No they use Labview (Really expensive)that is also graphical programming and puts your program in an c++ exe file. I worked with it one year for a company, is big bit more difficult then SM and almost only used by professionals on any kind of engineering.

trogluddite · 26 Jun 2012

Nu Audio Science wrote: there are zero giants in the save as vst world

This may surprise you, but I agree! Of course there are no giants in the 'save as VST world' - there isn't room, because it is far too small a world. Too small a world for even a minnow like OutSim to survive on that revenue stream alone. There are just so many plugins out there these days, that the incentive to 'roll your own' is much less than it used to be, IMHO.

Nu Audio Science wrote: super limited robotics market

There I disagree - 1000's of schools, colleges and universities are using them in a wide variety of subjects. Data logging and automation are keystones of modern mass production. And this is where the giants I was referring to live. I work in just this field - electronic training systems for education and industry. The first question we are asked whenever we release a new product is; "Is it compatible with LabView / Visual Basic". Oddly, most educators and engineers seem to loathe LabView, and would love to have something more user friendly - but they are the de-facto standard, and no-one will risk changing. (just as nearly all designers use PhotoShop/AutoCAD even though there are many alternatives)

Nu Audio Science wrote: rather than the mobile market... ...devalued their own intelectual property

Can't argue with you there - the intellectual idea and user interface are great, but the attachment to a single platform (and then not keeping up with developments on said platform), and targeting 'niche' markets, have undoubtedly been their undoing. I still think that DSP plugins alone would not be enough to sustain them, even if it were multi-platform - but a graphical way to design smartphone app's etc. would have incredible potential.

Nu Audio Science wrote: No disrespect meant here

You'd have to try a lot harder than than to get me riled! 😈 Bringing a new viewpoint to a debate, and not pussyfooting around, are cool with me - it's folks that get in a huff with only playground name-calling to back it up that I can't stand - and I'm glad that this is very very rarely that kind of forum! To argue is a sign of respect - it shows that you assume your 'adversary' has the intelligence to digest new ideas. 😍

infuzion · 27 Jun 2012

trogluddite wrote: To anyone who is desperate for better features and compatability, I can only ask; how much C++ could you have learned while you have been twiddling your thumbs waiting?

trogluddite wrote: To argue is a sign of respect - it shows that you assume your 'adversary' has the intelligence to digest new ideas. 😍

Quote of the month!

Dozius · 28 Jun 2012

trogluddite wrote: engineers seem to loathe LabView, and would love to have something more user friendly - but they are the de-facto standard, and no-one will risk changing.

The first thing I did when I reached a position of power at work was to throw labview in the garbage. If you want to know misery, try developing large scale software in a team environment with labview. What a mess.

jjs · 28 Jun 2012

Dozius wrote: trogluddite wrote: engineers seem to loathe LabView, and would love to have something more user friendly - but they are the de-facto standard, and no-one will risk changing.

My former boss also used Labview but more for quick projects and to do some measuring. But next to it he did JAVA and C programming and FPGA programming with Xylinx and that kind of stuff.

But SM is more for anybody till it gets to tricky. I think if you can program yourself you will use that skill instead of using SM, unless you want quick results.

jjs · 5 Jul 2012

Maybe this is of interest, founfd it when i searched for an alternative for flowstone wich is biomobius wich is totally free http://biomobius.trilcentre.org (also GUI design etc.) what is based on the eyesweb platform http://www.infomus.org/eyesweb_eng.php and supports a few things:

EyesWeb is an open platform to support the design and development of real-time multimodal systems and interfaces. It supports a wide number of input devices including motion capture systems, various types of professional and low cost videocameras, game interfaces (e.g., Kinect, Wii), multichiannel audio input (e.g. microphones), analog inputs (e.g. for physiological signals). Supported outputs include multichannel audio, video, analog devices, robotic platforms. Various standards are supported, including OSC, MIDI, FreeFrame and VST plugins, ASIO, Motion Capture standards and systems (Qualisys), Matlab. EyesWeb supports real-time synchronized recordings of multimodal channels, and includes a number of software libraries, including the Non-Verbal Expressive Gesture Analysis and the Non-Verbal Social Signals Analysis libs. Users can develop proprietary software libs using the EyesWeb development environment. The EyesWeb software includes a development environment, a distributed run-time system (supporting Windows, Linux, and mobile platforms) to create distributed or networked real-time applications, and an open set of libraries of reusable software components. The development environment supports the design process of multimodal interactive systems, enabling users to build systems by means of a visual programming language, which presents some analogies with computer music languages inspired to analog synthesizers or to software systems like Simulink. EyesWeb is conceived, designed and developed by InfoMus Lab. The EyesWeb project started in 1997, as a natural evolution of the HARP Project. The current release of the open software platform is EyesWeb XMI (eXtended Multimodal Interaction). The EyesWeb software platform has been adopted in EU projects in the 5th, 6th and 7th Framework Programme (ICT), and by thousands of users worldwide for scientific research, education, and industry applications. For example, EyesWeb was selected by INTEL in 2008 for their hardware for "independent living", and was adopted at the New York University Summer Program on "Music, dance and new technologies" (2004 - 2006).

So i'm investigating a few things if it is possible to use it like synthmaker. Maybe it is useable.

Nu Audio Science · 16 Aug 2012

Gotta say, the way Outsim have played this out, really disgusting, what a bunch of ^that part of your body above the leg where your body exits its waste, not the fluid waste at the front but the real smelly stuff at the back, yeah that part of the body^. I know some may think that is harsh but damn, SM plugs are now crashing most bridges when used in x64 hosts.

That suits FLS down to the ground with Gol and his "X64 isn't needed" stance, but the rest of us living in the year 2012 are boned, thanks for really dropping the ball Outsim grrrrr

philter5 · 16 Aug 2012

😈 😝

Nu Audio Science · 16 Aug 2012

Edited my post because somebody was upset by the word that i used that is a part of the body right above your legs.... Thanks for reporting the post, it's the first interesting thing to happen with SM for a long time 😉

infuzion · 16 Aug 2012

Nu Audio Science wrote: Edited my post because somebody was upset by the word that i used that is a part of the body right above your legs.... Thanks for reporting the post, it's the first interesting thing to happen with SM for a long time 😉

If all you want to do (which is all you have done for the past 2 years) is to jump on this forum to let loose your anger, please find another forum or hobby to do so.

If you want to contribute, then do so. If you don't like SM's direction, then write your own dang program. It really is that simple.

/hugs

Tzarls · 16 Aug 2012

Hey guys, cool down.... and show some respect - after all, this is a funeral, isn´t it? 😈 😉

trogluddite · 16 Aug 2012

Tzarls wrote: after all, this is a funeral, isn´t it? 😈 😉

NWML!! 😀

(Nearly Wet Myself Laughing).

mshilarious · 16 Aug 2012

So, the letter . . . seems we finally get MIDI timing, but it doesn't say about any updates like 2.4 or 64, etc. Am I missing something there? Because I think I'd pay

5 per month for everything but not just MIDI timing. I suppose MIDI timing would work as a green events trigger? Maybe not, I am tired at the moment . . .

RunBeerRun2 · 16 Aug 2012

I can't upgrade, it's really expensive. If you don't pay $800 you don't permanently own it.

tester · 16 Aug 2012

As a customer, I just received the letter about the end of Synthmaker and politics of FlowStone, and I admit - worst case scenario happened. Now at least 1 or 2 years of waiting, to see what happens next (whether the investment is worth it's value, and all that silly situations that will start to pop upt due to such change of direction). No comments.

adamszabo · 16 Aug 2012

Damn, I wish we could get an option to choose subscription or one time fee. And fees below 800 bucks. I will only make vsts and I will never need to program robots and microchips and whatnot.

S0lo · 16 Aug 2012

Can I buy Synthmaker now? I don't need the updates for now really, until may be two years later.

treacherousumbrella · 16 Aug 2012

ouch... monthly subscription? I think my bank account can live without that 🙁 anyone know what the limitations of the free version will be? If it justs prevents exporting that would be not so bad

here's the letter for anyone that hasn't received it: http://www.dsprobotics.com/SynthMaker%20Letter.pdf

FreeRideSkier · 16 Aug 2012

Yes you can still buy SM if you want.

I think this is a great move I use both SynthMaker and FlowStone and the benefits of FlowStone are huge. Just the Ruby code module is worth it's weight in gold.

Just think you can now make your own dll files and link them like and SDK using ruby and sample accurate timing for audio and midi. You can even make you own VST midi sequencer now you have accurate midi timing etc.

Come on guys don't kill the golden goose...you all wanted more updates and features etc. this is a dot COM not a dot ORG!

treacherousumbrella · 16 Aug 2012

it's probably a great thing for future features and development, I just really don't like the subscription model. Guess it's not so bad for those with a regular guaranteed income

tester · 16 Aug 2012

I guess (as far I remember) the limitation includes the amount of primitives per project.

Some regular modules (non-ruby), the useful ones - could probably easy migrate between FS and SM I guess. Some engine optimizations too. Maybe it's not dot org, but for folks like me, who purchased SM less than a year ago (pro version) - it's like (...) somewhat. I'm slowly losing my trust to that company. I'm not a test subject for testing new business models/strategies. Sorry.

But if anyone is interested to sponsor the pro version of FS (cross-grade should be cheaper I guess?) for me, then I'm open 😉, you will be included in "about" tab of created software. Sponsoring or crowd-sponsoring can be a XXI century business model too 😉

trogluddite · 16 Aug 2012

First thing, thanks treacherous for posting the letter - I haven't got it yet and was getting very confused what the hell everyione was talking about!

This will take some digesting I think - the weird thing is that what I find most off-putting is the eventual loss of this forum. Not usually like me to be such a sentimental old fool! 😊 But really, I have used software that has forums with many 1000s of users, and the experience is just not the same - not that folks are any less friendly or anything, but there's just too much of it to wade through. And what of our vast store of schematics, tutorials, module toolkits etc. - that is surely not all going to migrate over all by itself.

As for the business model - well firstly, is there anything in that letter that we didn't work out for ourselves and post up in this very thread? Hmm, not really - so we should not be so surprised at this turn of events.

And is SynthMaker dead? In name; at least, yes, for sure. In principle, no, we can carry on with what we have, or access the same, and more, featuresI in the new software. It is as dead as we make it - we all make our choice whether to try a new platform, be pragmatic and do the maths to see if it is economic for us, or just plain get cross about it.

I am not a fan of the subscription model either - but, barring a complete inability to pay online, the only barrier is whether we consider less than a dollar /day (not even half a pint of ale!) is good value for whatever we feel the new software will offer us - and we have at least been given the chance to try it for free for a little while so that it can be an educated choice.

But I still can't help feeling a most sad that our little 'club' will be broken up 😝 - to those of you who choose a different path than myself - thankyou for the lessons, the pushes when I was apathetic, and most of all your good humour. 🙂

Time to crack open a beer, and remember what a great experience being an SM user and member of this forum has been! 😍

tester · 16 Aug 2012

By the way - what is going to happen with this forum posts? And if it will be mixed with FS forum, then it would not produce some confusion between versions? Because FS exists since a while, so some posts will mix in timeline. Or is it going to be just moved as a SM archive to one subforums (the easiest way)?

treacherousumbrella · 16 Aug 2012

the amount of knowledge that would be lost if they do not at least archive these forums would be criminal. I'm not disputing the price of the subscription, it seems fairly reasonable. My main concern is money leaving my account on a monthly basis as being self employed my income varies massively from month to month. I can't be the only one in this boat. Having the option to pay the fee yearly would suit me far better.

trogluddite · 16 Aug 2012

treacherousumbrella wrote: the amount of knowledge that would be lost if they do not at least archive these forums would be crimina

treacherousumbrella wrote: Having the option to pay the fee yearly would suit me far better.

Yes, I have been in that financial position myself, so I do sympathise - I can understand the company wanting the regular income to support their efforts, but they would do well to recognise that many of their (potential) users may not wish to risk the sudden disabling of their tools due to short-term cash-flow problems.

The best we can do is to think positively, and make our suggestions heard, e.g...

- Could we pay a little 'estra' up front into our "account" when we have spare cash to build a buffer against hard times? - A dedicated VST area on the FS forum, so that we still have our little 'camp fire' to gather around. - An organised method, maybe via the mod's, to ear-mark especially useful posts and schematics for migration - the sooner the better.

I shall certainly be writing to the dev's in the morning with some ideas that they hopefully will find constructive.

tester · 16 Aug 2012

...and why do I see limited amount of forums/posts when I login with SM account to FS, while when using alternative FS account - I have different selection there ? ? ?

trogluddite · 16 Aug 2012

Possibly there is some stuff restricted to only paying members?

trogluddite · 16 Aug 2012

On a more practical note. There are surely some folks here who already are using FS. What is your experience with SM schematics since the FS upgrades - do they work reliably in FS? Easy, well documented workarounds? Absolute nightmare, forget it, start again?

Xtinct · 16 Aug 2012

I bought a kettle today, it boils water, should I complain tomorrow, wheres the toast ? Whiney b*tch hiaku yes new features would be nice but have you explored everythig SM has to offer? when the "old timers" are still offering new stuff on the forum every week and new people are joining with new ideas all the time. It is what it is, it never pretended to be anything else, if you want a kettle to make toast buy a toaster, I'll stick with finding out how to boil water in new and interesting ways. Nuff said 😝

I look forward to new posts, as they may bring new ideas so when I get an alert I get excited only to find its someone whineing please stop 😠

Nu Audio Science · 16 Aug 2012

infuzion wrote: Nu Audio Science wrote: Edited my post because somebody was upset by the word that i used that is a part of the body right above your legs.... Thanks for reporting the post, it's the first interesting thing to happen with SM for a long time 😉

If all you want to do (which is all you have done for the past 2 years) is to jump on this forum to let loose your anger, please find another forum or hobby to do so.

If you want to contribute, then do so. If you don't like SM's direction, then write your own dang program. It really is that simple.

/hugs

Please do not tell people to leave the forum. You have no right to do that with anybody. Complaining about a post is one thing but don't you dare tell people to leave, this forum is now officially done and dusted anyway. What i have said will happen for the last 2 years has happened. NO MORE SYNTHMAKER outsim are idiots it is that simple.

Nu Audio Science · 16 Aug 2012

trogluddite wrote: On a more practical note. There are surely some folks here who already are using FS. What is your experience with SM schematics since the FS upgrades - do they work reliably in FS? Easy, well documented workarounds? Absolute nightmare, forget it, start again?

On the practical side of things FS is a much better app allround. Outsim should be giving sm users a free copy nevermind this monthly garbage and £800 REALLY not going to happen. On top of everything else there is still a bunch missing on FS and the reality here is they cant afford to add the missing stuff unless they get a bunch more users on board ie us. That is very doubtful with most of us i suspect and as such i expect outsim or at least the coders from outsim to be making phoneapps within the next year or two and doing very well from it. FS has the same future SM had NONE (sorry if you dont like people having an opinion infuzion, unfortunately you are nobody boss here on a public forum)

tester · 16 Aug 2012

Trog - I did not paid FS, and have different access on SM (limited) and FS accounts.

The thing with schematics is (at least was when last tested), that SM projects can be opened in FS (changing the extension), but some simpler FS projects (a matter of common primitives) can be opened in SM in the same way (after changing the extension) after I remember.

micron · 16 Aug 2012

sm schematics are fine on flowstone.

I just disagree the ruby way, because it has been used as workaround to avoid proper developing of the core application and it's a little bit strange to use a scripting language born for web applications such as ruby to obtain the proper midi timing and if you want to use the ruby gems, most are not working.

Also, since the introduction of the ruby modules inside flowstone, the generated exe must be distributed together with additional ruby stuff needed for the app to work, or you'll get an error even if the app don't make use of the ruby modules. Let's see the V3 update, if at least it will fix the flowstone bugs it'll be worth a try even if i don't see any discounts for flowstone+synthmaker license owners, they just force us to pay for the montly subscription.

Nu Audio Science · 16 Aug 2012

I wonder where FLS SM stands through all this.

Xtinct · 16 Aug 2012

Nu Audio Science wrote: I wonder where FLS SM stands through all this.

Maybe try the FLS SM forum?

Xtinct · 16 Aug 2012

Sorry but if your talking about anything but SM shouldent it be in off topic 😠

trogluddite · 16 Aug 2012

Xtinct wrote: I bought a kettle today, it boils water, should I complain tomorrow, wheres the toast ? Whiney b*tch hiaku

He he, very good - it sums it this whole thread very well. 😀

infusion wrote: please find another forum

NAS wrote: Please do not tell people to leave the forum

Sorry but...

It's lovely to be on a forum with such good manners, don't you think? I will miss that. 😉 😈

Please, can't we all just calm down a little bit - we've all had a bit of a shock, and as red-blooded males obviously cannot allow ourselves to reveal so much as a glimpse our sadness and vulnerability in this time of great loss. I welcome you all to sup a beer (or many) with me, and commiserate on our immeasurable devastation at the news that our favourite geek toy has died, following an agonisingly drawn-out decline that has been absolutely heart-breaking to wattch. If the sad news makes you want to weep, please go ahead, your displays of machismo and "stiff upper lip" are not required, for I too feel the agony. And rest assured, that the evil hangover in the morning will put all of this trauma into it's true perspective; and maybe even we'll get a little DSP programming done, whatever our tools of choice, for truly it is written, "whatever gets the job done is good enough for me".

😍 😈

(Mmmm, Bacchus Kreik, a damned good beer - couldn't have come at a better time!) 😉

S0lo · 16 Aug 2012

I can't even download Flowstone, it says "You are not authorised to read this forum." 🙁

attic · 17 Aug 2012

I applaud merging the software that is a good move. The rental system will not work for me. Loosing the info at this forum is not exceptable. Finally what about 64bit .... does Flowstone work with 64bit .. or does it crash 64bit hosts?

You can purchase it. [ FlowStone Professional is also available to buy for $799. Please contact us for more details. ]

attic · 17 Aug 2012

Edit I was wrong you can purchase it. [ FlowStone Professional is also available to buy for $799. Please contact us for more details. ] i swear that wasn't there when i looked a couple hours ago. http://www.dsprobotics.com/buy-rent.php

infuzion · 17 Aug 2012

attic wrote: I would like the new Flowstone model without the threat of loosing function and build time with this rental system. I want to own my software not rent it. You could then talk to me about a yearly charge for updates. I do not want software that turns off functionality that has already been paid for.

I assumed you can use the free version, then for the few times you need the extra abilities, just buy 1 month of the full, then export as EXE...?

attic · 17 Aug 2012

I assumed you can use the free version, then for the few times you need the extra abilities, just buy 1 month of the full, then export as EXE...?

Well what if your project has over 25000 components in it.... most of mine do. What if you have over 2 Ruby Components? Then you have do be up to date on you subscription or you must live within those trial limitations.

cyto · 17 Aug 2012

I sincerely hope that Outsim is successful with this new direction. However, I am afraid this is not going to go well for them. I don't really like to advertise it around here, but my advanced degrees are in administration (corporate finance) and accounting. As an objective observer of this new plan (and not just another disgruntled SM user) I can see so many ways that it violates the basic tenets of sound business practice. I will not go on some long diatribe on strategic management (I'll save the energy for DSP-related concepts), but it is becoming more and more clear to me that Outsim completely misunderstands its customers, its markets, its strentghs/weaknesses/opportunities/threats (to borrow text-book concepts). It really is a shame, because with the right focus and the right strategy, I think they could really do well for themselves. But I think they suffer from what a lot of smaller firms suffer from, namely an idealized view of their potential and lack of resources to form and execute a business plan.

Granted, my expertise is in U.S. accounting standards and I am not too familiar with the standards in the UK (though they are constantly converging), I imagine the subscription plan is going to be a nightmare from the accounting perspective. The expensing of software R&D is already tricky, but when you add to that the trickiness of irregular revenue accrual, things are bound to get trickier. While they claim that the "constant" flow of revenue will allow them to focus more on development, I can forsee it forcing them to focus more on "the books". They cite Adobe as an adopter of that pricing model (and I'm sure many other larger companies will be going in that direction), but in order to successfully keep up with it, you need pretty robust ERP/accounting software and a dedicated staff, not just a copy of quickbooks or peachtree.

I really do hope they prove me wrong! I really hope that they brought in consultants to help them arrive at these decisions. I really hope that the plan they are adopting is better than what the "letter" portrays. I enjoy working with the software and working with the members of this forum and I want to see the company grow and thrive. But I'm afraid that feeling that we've all had in the pit of our stomach is now being validated. I think we can officially change the question marks in the title of this thread to exclamation points.

-cyto

Tzarls · 17 Aug 2012

So.... this really was a funeral after all!!! LOL!!!

Interesting to see how the idea of creating 2 different apps that where basically the same thing turned out to be a bad idea - so bad that Outsim actually decided to turn those 2 apps into one again. It would have been easier to just change the name of Synthmaker to Flowstone and spare us all from that SM2 joke...

But hey, don´t be so upset. Everyone who purchased SM will still have a version of SM that works exactly as it did yesterday. And I´m sure that before buying SM, everyone here did their homework searching the forum to see if the app was worth the $$, finding all the pros and cons. So if you bought the app you knew what you were getting into. Yes, you´ll never again get updates for Synthmaker beacuse the company decided that the new features can´t be added to the current software, but hey, that would also be the case if Outsim went out of business, so... And after all, many major companies act similarly. Avid (formerly Digidesign) decides that it wants to sell their new model of M-Box, so they create a new version of ProTools that won´t work with previous versions of the M-Box. Apple ships a new OS that won´t work with old hardware....

So yes, Synthmaker is dead, long live Synthmaker!

I wonder what Jorge is thinking right now.

infuzion · 17 Aug 2012

Ah, now I see what all the fuss is about. Yea FS is a bit much; we are so used to great free/cheap software that expecting to pay real money for something seems out of line now. Was not so 10, even 5 years ago. Why pay full cash for the Adobe Suite unless you can make 10x from it, when you can get 90% of its capabilities from free software? Even AAA games have troubles, like the Star Wars online has to go free2play just 10 months after release.

I do expect discounts for we SMers, like before. I do expect that they offer 64bit OS & processing at that price also; I doubt they will offer a 3.0 version that will be adding VST export only.

Not sure about FL-SM; I had to bug Malc about it last time.

attic · 17 Aug 2012

Now that I see you have the option to purchase Flowstone ...I need to convince myself that I can come up with $799 as a Synthmaker Pro version owner. I think it depends on three things. 64bit is needed, relying on windows timers needs to change and the Gui components need acceleration IE(to high a cpu hit when automating in their current state).

To bad I got so upset and couldn't hold off on my completely Irrational rant that I sent Malc ..... When I thought you had to Rent Flowstone and could not purchase it, that put me clean over the edge ... hopefully he is a forgiving guy.

MyDogRamsey · 17 Aug 2012

Graphics and windows timers are an absolute problem that needs to be addressed!!! 64 bit is a must have, no question... RTAS is another MAJOR need.

Those things form my decision to upgrade. Then again... I know of a way to get all of them right now... C++ .. Need I say more? 🙂

trogluddite · 17 Aug 2012

MyDogRamsey wrote: C++ .. Need I say more?

Indeed, I have said before that this comes down to the perception of what SM/FS is aiming to be, and who its intended users are.

If the aim is to provide a low-cost environment that opens up "DIY" software development to people with little training or resources (which is how I see the software), then SM has little competition. To expect such software to churn out plugins and apps that can compete on a level playing field with the big VST software houses, is I feel, rather missing the point. Those companies have large teams of programmers who put in the necessary man-hours, using professional tools - to expect SM/FS to provide us with a lazy short-cut to that is, in my opinion, unreasonable. Likewise, the many free, user created plugins available at KVR et. al. are great to have on tap, but I never have any expectation that they should match the quality or robustness of their professionally produced equivalents. I am proud of some of the things which I have made using SM, and grateful that it allows me to do so with such ease, sparing me from all the the house-keeping and interfacing with the OS that would otherwise put me off the whole idea of trying to be 'self-sufficient'. I also think that the days of producing VST's being a "cottage industry" are long gone - there is little ground now between being an amateur tinkerer and the big corporations. Most of the truly powerful and innovative plugins are produced by large, well funded teams, and the expectation of users is that all "lesser" products fit into the category of "freeware". To expect a reasonable income as a self-employed one-man-band producing plugins, while it's not impossible, is IMHO, rather unrealistic now that the market has had a decade or two to mature - just as nobody manufactures commercially successful vehicles in their home workshop, as the early car makers once did. We might criticise OutSim/DSPRobotics for their use of the word "professional" in their marketing I suppose, and accuse them of giving us unrealistic expectations. But that is the very nature of marketing; without the hyperbole, no company can expect to gain any kind of visibility in the market - and as programmers, surely we are intelligent enough to see beyond the blurb, assess the tools available, and choose something more suitable if SM does not fulfill our requirements.

Warmonger · 17 Aug 2012

Aybody care to explain clearly what's the deal with all this Flowstone migration and subscription? Everything I've read today sounds just ridiculous.

mshilarious · 17 Aug 2012

The advantage the small developer has over the house is the ability to provide customization. I have done that with a couple of VSTs integrated with my custom hardware business.

I have written several custom VSTs for myself, obviously I don't care about 2.4 or 64 for that, but for the custom commercial VST side SM is too far behind. It's too far behind even for freeware anymore.

FS with export to 2.4, 64, android, MCUs . . . we can dream, can't we 🙂

MyDogRamsey · 17 Aug 2012

mshilarious wrote: The advantage the small developer has over the house is the ability to provide customization. I have done that with a couple of VSTs integrated with my custom hardware business.

FS with export to 2.4, 64, android, MCUs . . . we can dream, can't we 🙂

Totally agreed. Without bringing FS up to speed its SM with a new name and extra bloat because of the robotics, something that we will NEVER USE. I mean we're already getting questioned about 64 bit support and why we need it! Why does no one at Outsim or DSP Robotics understand why we need this? Do they not go to KVR or any of the places that their users distribute their creations? This very question from them bothered me a lot. I will do the upgrade, but only because Malc has been very cool with me in the past, and I'd like to see them succeed.

I think its pretty safe to say that SM is really dead, and the powers that be are failing to realize some really important things. Like preserving this forum!!!! There is a cornucopia of information here that will just vanish. That to me is completely disrespectful to all of us. All the work that infuzion did, oddson, tzarls, trog, andrewJ and everyone else! All the "off the cuff" comments that were made in far flung posts from 7 years ago that answer the very question you are trying to find an answer to today! All of that gone! Really?, are you friggin kidding me!

I mean they have no idea why we need 64 bit support? FS has been the focal point for so long that I feel they have lost touch with what this product is. Sure Ruby is a great addition, and in fact it brings some things in that should have been there in the first place.. Like timing, like DLL support, and so on. FS without being brought into modern standards is almost useless, and why would we upgrade to that for 800 dollars when SM is already bought and does essentially the same thing without the bloat.Sure it doesnot have ruby, but frankly, you're better off learning C++ than staying with something that has a no support for modern standards.

My thoughts on this upgrade have changed since I read about the forum being taken down, now that just pisses me off. The forum cannot stay if SM is dead, I know, but all this knowledge, all this RELEVANT knowledge, being removed. Come on..!

I fear you are throwing out the baby with the bath water DSP Robotics

trogluddite · 17 Aug 2012

MyDogRamsey wrote: I mean they have no idea why we need 64 bit support?

There are many forums I visit, not just for VST, but also 3D CAD etc. etc. where this is the "hot topic" on everyone's lips. So let's cut to the chase. What is needed is that when we export a plugin, and import it into our host of choice - it works! That is all. So yes, let's get the VST spec' upgraded to something more recent - even us amateurs who don't share our plugins need that.

But 64bit? 99% of the folks on the forums who are clamouring for 64bit support have no idea why they need it, no idea what a 'bit' even is, and in the majority of hosts, the simple fact is that they don't need it at all - they are just suckers who waste cash left, right and centre on new software because they can't see marketing for the empty hyperbole that it is......

......OK, OK, before anyone flames me, I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here 😈

But the fact is that 64bit is not a technical panacea that instantly makes everything better, and if SM/FS could somehow "wrap" a plugin so as to make it work reliably in 64bit hosts, then to all intents and purposes it is "64bit compatible" - for most end users haven't a care in the world about the inner workings of their mysterious 'black boxes'. I strongly suspect that many of the plugin makers who went 64bit very early on did exactly this - why recode everything when you can apply a "wrapper" as a batch process, and claim some income for 'updating' everything? So what I'm saying is that maybe there is a much more achievable "half way house" that OutSim could aim for as an interim measure - no need to rewrite the entire architecture of FS, but at least relieve us plugin developers of the angry customers and bug reports that the current VST exports can lead to when generic "bit bridges" don't work.

MegaHurtz · 17 Aug 2012

I dont have no idea why you would need 64 bit support too? Do you?

MyDogRamsey · 17 Aug 2012

No, I need the plugins to run...Period.

Nu Audio Science · 18 Aug 2012

64 bit is needed because indeed most bit bridges are rubbish and when you want 32 gig of ram in your daw you are going 64bit

if outsim can create a perfect non crashing bridge (they cant or they would have years back) then fine

now to this 250k for the 64bit rewrite has jorge left the building or what ? Seems they dont know at outsim how quickly jorge rewrote sm from scratch the last time round haha

attic · 18 Aug 2012

Here is the initial response at the SE camp. Note what they think of the price "A great chance for jeff."

wow, check this out... Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:28 am (PDT) . Posted by: "k9k9dog" k9k9dog over on the other team, synthmaker, some big changes are going to take place...read this! :: http://dsprobotics.us5.list-manage1.com ... d4536972d0

(hope the link works, if not i'll upload the pdf)

(essentially, synthmaker is evolving into something else, and they'll be having a whopping license fee, or monthly subscription; could be good news for synthedit - or not? i really hope SE does NOT go this route!!!)

Reply to sender "Klaus" kwenzel89 Oha,

799 USD for th new SM/Flowstone. This means synthedit is at first alone. And fraction the price... super , 799 ? is 799 ?. But maybe they have totally new options , let us wait and see.

A great chance for jeff.

Greets

Synthfreak

oddson · 18 Aug 2012

😝 Dead as nails... it's been fun.

I'll miss you guys... although I'm sure I'll post here for a while as even as corpse SynthMaker is still useful to me.

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