Make My Pads/EQ Writeable?

Dell · 20 Jan 2012

Hi.

I am away from my Computer that offers Synthmaker so I did not download your OSM.

If you insert the Preset Manager, in any one of the modules in your schematic, you will have full control of all the functions of your Pads/EQ. The Preset Manager is a Wireless device so it talks to the controls despite not having any visual connections present.

[old link]

Cheers!

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

I appreciate the fast response!

^ Yep, I have a preset manager already in - as stated it's part of a much bigger schematic which already has a bunch of other stuff that is writing no problem, just these specific components don't seem to get remembered.

I read all the related posts on the forum too, downloaded a few examples (actually as many as I could find, I've been trying to debug this for 3 days now so I'm giving up and asking for help from here) and see that the modules themselves do need preset elements in them to work to begin with - and these don't seem to have them so I've tried adding them manually by inspecting other pads that DO have automation (but those pads won't work for my particular instance). Without getting complex with my explanation and the workarounds I've tried, I'd prefer to be patient and just see how you guys would make these specific components work as needed. I think one of the pads still has my last attempt at adding the elements needed manually too...

Thx. NC.

trogluddite · 20 Jan 2012

Welcome to the forum.

Hopefully this modification will go some way towards what you are after...

In addition to Dell's suggestion of adding the Manager, I've modified the top pad - most stock controls won't need changing as they already include the required parts - but the XY pad is a user creation, and does not yet have the bits needed for talking to the preset manager (and hence the host too). Note that to include the preset and automation features, I have added 'VST Presets' within the pad modules, and this required a few other modifications, which I'll try to explain...

1) I've altered the way that scaling the values works, so that the XY accumulator and Preset modules see only values from 0 to 1. This is important because the VST specification insists that this is the valid range for proper communication with the host (e.g.. so that automation 'lanes' are scaled properly.)

2) The 'feedback loops' with sample and holds and 'Left mouse down'. This ensures that when your mouse clicks (to begin a drag), the XY accumulator starts off with the right values. Without this, changing presets or reading automation would put the accumulator 'out of sync' with the actual value - causing it to 'jump' to its old remembered' value when you started a drag.

3) A string to set the name of the preset. This has the suffixes 'X' and 'Y' added within the preset modules. This is very important - all controls must have unique preset names, otherwise they cannot be sorted by the host, and you will get very bizarre 'crosstalk' between controls! In this case the 'X' and 'Y' axes count as two separate controls, hence the extra suffix to the strings.

Hope that gets you up and running - feel free to post again if you need anything I've done clarifying (or I messed up and it doesn't work!!)

Happy Synthmaking, The Luddite.

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

!!!

You just made my day 🙂

Might have to name my first born after ya (looks at username again), or something... to say thanks...

lol.

Trog - feel like I know you already. I work for myself and do this stuff daily for a living so I've been devouring this forum like it was a bag of mushrooms at my first rave wayyyyyyy back when (DISCLAIMER: NOT A RAVER AND DON'T LIKE SHROOMS), and you my friend - are either a very karma driven individual, or you're on the payroll here, or both.

I've downloaded probably a good two-three dozen of your OSM's over the last week or so and read countless of your responses helping people, thus helping me with the same issue.

I run a board too - you're the type/reason places like this flourish.

Thank you again my man this seems a lot easier to understand now.

NOTE TO OTHER NOOBS RE #3 above: I have three pads going on, because I haz tricks up my sleeve! If you're going to use more than one pad, you'll have to go into each one and give it it's own preset name handle. Tried doing all three quickly and crashed cubase pretty damn bad... quick inspection and a lightbulb moment followed. I'll report again but so far it's working on SM re changing on presets - hopefully all three write/read too. I noticed with the EQ there I posted in the OSM that when changing presets the EQ would bounce around but it would not actually write/automate. < Meaning if I click from preset 1 to 2, it changes, however if I press play and try to record some eq changes, they are not recorded only the on/off button on the eq is.

Cheers, NC.

EDIT: There's no 'thanks' or '+1' on zeh forumz here? SO +1000000, and thanks +10000 to all others who have posted their help and OSM's etc. You have no idea how much it has helped me fast-track learning.

EDIT 2: Reading and writing are working on the pads but crashing cubase - trying some stuff will report again.

trogluddite · 20 Jan 2012

You are most welcome! 😀

On the payroll would be lovely! 😉 - but actually, I think that the forum flourishes as it does precisely because SM's developers leave us alone to be completely autonomous. Allows us to be completely frank about the frustrating times when the software limits what we can do - as a global moderator, my ethos is that unless you are making life painfully uncomfortable for other users, you can say what you really think (NB - my gentle ways do not apply to spammers!!).

And 'karma' - yes that's just it. Everything I learned, I got from here too (and still do), so helping out seems 'the right thing'. It's also great for 'double checking' my own understanding, and makes me part of a cool little 'community' that never seems to have the horrible, bitchy, backstabbing BS that seems to infect Facebook etc. (I'm the nearest thing we have to a troll!)

ncmedia wrote: Might have to name my first born after ya

He he - took a while, but even my Mum calls me Trog these days! However, may I suggest that you introduce your first born to the joys of a pint of traditionally brewed real ale, and Yorkshire pudding with onion gravy - I would be proud indeed for that to be my legacy! 😉

Which board is it that you run? Not often that I 'travel' beyond my few favourites these days - but I like your style, and it's always nice to find somewhere new to visit that is still an outpost of intelligent, civilised humanity (and a good sense of humour of course!).

Best wishes, and happy SynthMaking, Trog.

trogluddite · 20 Jan 2012

Re: your EDIT2.

If you want to post up your full schematic, I'm sure some folks will be happy to take a look. In the meantime, use the manager to save a preset file. If you then take a look in a text editor, you can easily check for duplicate names and out of range values. Also note that SM only exports to the VST 2.4 standard (still! 😠 ) - and Steinberg dropped official support for that quite a while ago (when VST3.0 was introduced, IIRC), so there are sometimes a problems with Steinberg hosts. If you search for those things, you may find some solutions - e.g. changing the order that presets are listed in the manager etc.

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

Thank you again 🙂

Quick question: The pads are writing - however once I read them, and they start actually reading - cubase goes ape and not only does the standard 'caused a serious problem....' but that error screen just keeps popping up in multiples like it's crashing over and over while still trying to read. Do my pads need separate ID's per line? So - for pad 1 I'd have padAa and padAb, or is the single line/coded mod enough? Or is it simply way too much data being passed with all three pads x 2 in each going? Each control a bunch of other stuff each going to different parts of the pads minus one safe zone so there's 9 inputs over 9 components in variations.. Right now I have all three with separate names I thought that would fix the crashing but no such luck.

Perhaps I'm just getting too excited and trying to overload it too fast so just going to spend some time with this before asking too much else.

I'd post the schematic but can't it's sensitive and will be commercially released soon - however having said that I've PM'd you with some info as well.

Yeah I've been reading anything/everything cubase related here since back to 2004/5'ish? and wow it's come a long way! However yes I'm already noting the bizarre preset management re matching your names to your presets, tried a few workarounds and am simply left with either:

a) having a 'randomize' button and hiding the other preset-management options other than the 'file' button,

or

b) what I'm doing now is just 'remix 1 - remix 2 -...' up to 15 and let users know that there is a bug so load your preset files one at a time and consider the default presets a simple starting point (annoying though but whatever it's a small price to pay for me after years of doing what I've been doing ((basically a really hard slow expensive way of what SM is now allowing me to do and more))).

My board: Will hold off on any promo for now but it's a marketing forum and I have a lot of commercial software on the market, will leave it at that until I'm more acquainted with the group and contribute as well.

may I suggest that you introduce your first born to the joys of a pint of traditionally brewed real ale, and Yorkshire pudding with onion gravy - I would be proud indeed for that to be my legacy! 😉

Duly noted, and done (and will have to try this just for me it sounds great!).

Going to play and see what happens on a blank canvas again starting slow, one pad at a time etc. Just the fact that it's this far along is enough to make me motor on figuring the rest out 🙂

NC.

EDIT: AHHhhhh the .txt file why didn't I think of that - there is indeed dupes and stuff out of wack - only prob is I dun get it yet and not sure what/how to handle dupes of stuff that just says 'k23' for instance - or that I have 66 (my eq bands) values set to 0 on a wavetable float - sooooo lost right now haha I love this stuff it's like a rubics cube on crack (DISCLAIMER: I DON'T LIKE RUBICS CUBES - BUT LOVE MY CRACK (COFFEE)). :P

Back to my version of the magic (steinberg) cube, will let you know if I can get this polished more.

EIDT 2: I THINK I remember reading one of the posts re VST3 and the reasons why it would be hard to upgrade, but without digging too much and without you writing too much - what's stopping them? Is it simply too big of a job? Will it never be updated because it's reduntant and works 'well enough' with all the newest tech in the owners opinion? I'm curious and would love to know what it would take, and the pros/cons as well as cost/time if say a few people were to pitch in to make it happen? Worth exploring??

trogluddite · 20 Jan 2012

Tricky without seeing the full schematic, but here are some educated guesses...

1) Your pad presets should be OK. As long as they are 'PadA' 'PadB' etc - the little added 'X's and 'Y's should make everything unique. Each line of the text file should then simply be the preset name, followed by as many tabbed values as there are presets.

2) I notice on second look that you have a preset array to hold 'Wavetable' values for your EQ settings. There is a known issue with array presets, whereby they must be the last parameters named in the preset list - otherwise presets are enumerated completely incorrectly (I'm not 100% that this applies to Cubase, but it is likely as Steinberg software is by far the most fussy). Sadly, SM offers no control over this (parameters are always listed in the order that they were created). But you can work around it by re-arranging a preset text file into the correct order, and then re-loading it. IIRC one of the guys created an editor to make this easier, which is posted up somewhere.

The data rate for parameter changes is mostly down to the XY accumulators etc. - every mouse movement of at least one pixel creates a new value - but I would be surprised if only 9 parameters would push things too hard - unless...

1) Changing a value causes selectors/multiplexers in the stream sections to switch. This causes the SM 'environment' bundled inside the plugin to do a 'real-time' recompile of the plugins code - hogging the CPU until the compile is complete. 2) Value changes cause loops (especially if nested) to be triggered - again SM tries to complete the loops within one sample cycle, causing a massive CPU spike. 3) You have a VST 'Plugin Delay' in there who's value changes. This causes the plugin to communicate a new PDC (Plugin Delay Compensation') value - most hosts won't handle PDC changes with the transport running. 4) Automation feedback - if read auto values are sent in a loop that causes a new value to be written (and read, sent around again etc.) - but the sample and hold/mouse down combo should prevent this in the pads.

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

A lot of what you wrote - unfortunately still sounds like recipes to meals I don't comprehend yet and am scared to try to cook or eat or serve 🙂. However WOW at your understanding of all this stuff down to the most minute level. I thought going 20 windows deep was complex... I still haz learningz to do I see.

Yeah I've already used the little addon tool to rearrange my stuff but it doesn't realllllllly help noobs too much as I still don't understand what should go first-last or what means what exactly in the text file as some are just random/odd/? names, I'm sure in time it will make more sense.

In the meantime I'm going to decipher that recipe above thanks for such detail. NC.

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

SUCCESS!

Managed to actually get all of them writing pretty darn good as well as turning on/off and mashing up all my components and every single knob/slider on my UI - before i finally made cubase crash after 10 minutes or so of writing over continuous looping/writing probably on my 80th or so pass with 80layers of writing 🙂:). Happy with that and I'll never automate THAT many layers or components at once - just wanted to go past my limit so this is bomb.

LAST ONE:

The 66 band EQ - will not write 🙁 errrmmm it will write instances with each preset change but it won't let me record automation/changes.

Anyone care to see if they can get it going from Trog's OSM and reup? It seems to have the preset capabilities already in, or so i think due to me seeing the presets change the EQ as I change them, but now that I've inspected the eq modules inside the main one more - I don't even see any preset elements in any of them.

😮

Cheers, NC.

attic · 20 Jan 2012

SUCCESS!

Those are the moments in SM that make it so addictive. I'm always glad to see someone new freak out when struggle turns into something that works.

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

Yes,

I've had 100's of them so far within a week, and about 400 moments of frustration, 1895 versions of some files whiles testing stuff, AND after all these darn years, and thinking I had issues with my wiring and or studio setup, I have finally troubleshooted (troubleshot?) my biggest studio issue re my Motif8 dropping the left channel randomly and popping it back in. Literally YEARS of this has gone by, and after a week of SM'ing I haz narrowed right down to the output of the MO8 🙁. Managed to find a sweet spot with the wire but dammmmmmmn this was such a big investment at the time it's sad to see her broken/confirmed broken...

Anyway, back to SUCCESS feelings, yep it's like learning to ride a bike in here, or better a ducati, while you've been used to a tricycle all this time lol.

My GF is seeing a side of me she adores, I'm literally like a lil' kid with this ap.

Here's my lil' home studio I'm sitting in right now:

and

and room 2:

... so I'm already a kid in a candy store and I do a lot of media work on top of music/audio...

... BUT - THIS - SOFTWARE is like... me having an unlimited budget for the best wires, components, manufacturers, any gear I ever needed, and a knowledge base of people that is untouchable. So it's a dream come true for me and I've never let out so many lil' squeeky WOOHOOO's that make me sound like a 9 year old girl when yet another component starts to work perfectly or I want to impress her with a new flange on the left ear, pitch shift on the right, and automated EQ'ing moving on my screen with no hands. Haha she so doesn't get this stuff but she does - there's still a kid inside me and this is totally bringing him out as I'm sure you guys have had happen re your partners calling out your geeky side that they love.

"Just 5 more minutes (hours) honey"...

NIAH NIAH!! NC.

Dell · 20 Jan 2012

Hi.

I noticed you have a 66 Band Equaliser in your OSM. That design stemmed from another developer trying to help me to conserve CPU on another design I created. The developer told me that the design is unstable. This means it has a 50% chance of working and 50% of not passing any signal.

It may be best to build your own FFT Equaliser from scratch if you need such a large Equaliser if reliability is the objective.

Cheers!

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

^ aha.

Well - perhaps I'm running on a monster machine or perhaps his coding isn't as dirty as he thinks : translation : IT ROCKS!@! He did a fantastic job and I've already tried doing my own a few ways it's way out of my range (at least for now) and I would rather go through with this and put it through tons of testing before the commercial release on various machines to ensure a positive outcome on as many scenarios as possible however if it breaks too much I will indeed replace her with something less strenuous. So far it hasn't dropped a signal on MANY MANY MANY runs as I try to get the preset going and I had two of them going at one point as well.. EDIT: Actually I will say - it redlines easily but that's not his fault that's just me being pushy on my beast and loving playing with borderline redlines as I automate/write 🙂.

I'm still not even hitting 10% cpu with a ton of components going into it so I'm really happy but again i'm spoiled re my rig so we'll see on old/small/average/random machines soon.

Still amazed by all this stuff within the community - can't imagine trying to learn the official SDK and C+ etc at my level of daily data intake as it is so a true KUDOS to SM from me, I've been looking for 'something' like this for years dunno why previous searches didn't bring me here and I don't remember how I got here (think it was on another forum re people asking how to make aps/vst's).

Anyway back to the EQ - can you ask the creator if a) it has any automation components built into it already because I'm seeing changes when I change presets but can't find a smidgit of preset pieces/identifiers/names in there, and b) if not - what would be the easiest way to add it so it does indeed write/automate (is there a reason it would NOT be possible for this particular EQ?)?

Would be a shame to lose/try to rebuild again as it's beautiful and I'd take a 99 band or more too if he builds one - or tell him to contact me if he's up for making me one I'll pay for his time - more bands the better it could be its own 3 level 99 band left and right and I would find MANY mastering uses for it as would my customers...

NC.

Dell · 20 Jan 2012

There was a version that offered more bands but it worked sporadically. Just download all of them and choose the one that is the most reliable.

[old link]

The original design is by rl

FIR filter with "visual designer"

Bear in mind that you are using an FFT, which is why it is so efficient. Large band FFTs is not suited for mastering. The bands are too narrow. I would imagine this is your first large design so you are very excited. As you get better acquainted with Synthmaker, your creativity will grow and your demands will increase.

Most developers shy away from new members who are looking to pay someone to build than learn how to design what they want for themselves. Familiarise yourself with the stock plug-ins before venturing off to making your own codes.

I would suggest taking things one-step at a time, especially if your motive is to distribute your designs to the masses. It requires patience and the customer expects you to have the answers if a problem occurs.

Cheers!

ncmedia · 20 Jan 2012

Thank you for the links.

I've actually already read those and that's where I got what I have now 🙂.

I do applaud your workflow and advice, and yes I'm a) a fast learner b) been releasing products similar in nature moving well into 5 figure volumes for 4 years now, know the game rather well c) I'm not trying to become the next synth maker god 🙂 as much as I'd LOVE TO. I ended up here after looking for a way to redo what I've got on the go now which is a big operation but limited to the talent I have to hire to create what I need/do...so in this current phase I'm a business man mode meets creative kid again... But still I'm hiring talent as it is anyway and pay them well and have no control of the process - here I'm done 90% on my own and already paid my learning dues (no kids, work from home, established, I haz time to fall in love with stuff like this for a week straight and binge/learn/keep moving/grow with new talent...).

Already have my master pretty much done and will be getting someone here to actually 'master' it for me because my time is more valuable and my deadlines are important. And you're right I should spend time learning it all but that's not my personal goal just yet.. In the meantime though, and post-time, yes I'm loving the learning curve. NO WAY will I ever be designing anything/everything I need from scratch and I've read the debates they are interesting for sure.

That's the beauty, and imo the reason 90% of the people that are here, are here.

You can remix/refix/add/edit/play with an amazing library and get what you need done, done. People actually HELP with source files and share them which I find amazing and I've shared one now too - I have NO PROBLEM scouting for talent to pay them to help me but I do hear the 'do it yourself' argument and I'm doin' I'm doin', just wanna come correct and I pay for that confidence part no problem vs. learnin' foreva and the biz stalls.

Been doing audio for over a dozen years too so my ears are quite tuned to my needs/what sells/what works, this has allowed me to create an amazing 'add-on' series for something I wasn't going to mention for a while but I'll post the screenshot of one add one here since it'll be launching soon anyway 🙂

Will be giving anyone/everyone here a free copy since I've learned so much from all of you while lurking and inspecting - and will be doing a big .OSM release of a lot of my graphics (my true first or second love - always a battle between pleasing my eyeballs vs my ears but I ran an ad agency for a decade and did graphics for tier 1's whoring my talents 🙁 les sigh)... ANyway - my new baby:

One of 4 things customers get, and currently overhauling what I have now that's buzzing - to a main VST instrument that is a sample based ap converted from our previous online and standalone (all this in the last few years with a crazy custom cloud system and expensive programmer while SM was RIGHT UNDER MY NOSE!).

Kinda looking forward to the other mods and doing some videos of screen caps while using it the thing is absolutely perfect for my needs. I think everyone has their own preferences and thin lines mean little to my ears, having all these different EQ possibilities is a treat for both me - and I know will facilitate existing/future customers as a wicked premium freebie add-on.

Cheers again look forward mixing and meshing more - I'll be the first to say I hate code, and don't need to love it. Like I see some here who hate graphics but their stuff can look a lot better, my stuff can be mastered by one of you fine folks so I can continue the visionary and biz parts that I'm best at.

I'm absolutely rambling because my fingers are trigger happy from the all nighter and caffiene levels, so on that note and with this thing about 90% done as my first cool new toy, I'm about to crash - for a week 🙂.

Thank you again to all of you, if I can still get anyone to make the EQ writeable in an OSM it would be great. NC.

Dell · 21 Jan 2012

Your experience in Graphic Design shows. 🙂

Cheers!

oddson · 21 Jan 2012

Dell wrote: Hi.

I noticed you have a 66 Band Equaliser in your OSM. That design stemmed from another developer trying to help me to conserve CPU on another design I created. The developer told me that the design is unstable. This means it has a 50% chance of working and 50% of not passing any signal.

It may be best to build your own FFT Equaliser from scratch if you need such a large Equalizer if reliability is the objective.

Cheers!

ncmedia wrote: Well - perhaps I'm running on a monster machine or perhaps his coding isn't as dirty as he thinks

The problem with this was never CPU usage -- that was the whole point of my contributions was to say -- if you take out all possible calculations for a biquad from the stream rate math into the green world and used SSE channels efficiently you can have a pretty efficient EQ with a very large number of bands. The stability problems with it (to the best of my recollection) were related to restraining the parameters appropriately and sorting out the unsolved Q setting issue.

[old link]

ncmedia · 21 Jan 2012

Thank you Dell 🙂 ---------------- Oddson - Apologies,

Was awake for tooooo long (darn SM!) and misread that, and wow at my long winded thread lol!

Thank you - I'll inspect further and I understand this a lil' better, still wondering if this is/isn't automatable?

trogluddite · 22 Jan 2012

Hi, To get back to the problem of EQ automation - I think this may be solved fairly easily...

The key part is in the 'g bus create' module of the EQ. Inside there is a VST Preset Array primitive - rather than each EQ band having its own preset parameter, they are all stored as one long list inside this array (hence the lack of individual names in the preset text file). (it is this array of values that should ideally be last in the preset file - one header line with the name followed by the 66 value lines). Because of the way the links have been arranged on screen, it's hard to see, but the bottom input of the array ('Rec') is disconnected - which defaults to 'False', disabling automation recording. To record automation this should go true whenever there is mouse interaction - which you can usually derive from the 'dragging' output of the mouse accumulator component that moves the 'sliders'.

One thing I cannot vouch for! - it could be that rapid automation changes might be something that provokes the instability which Oddson was referring to earlier. In some EQs it is rapid changes of settings rather than the absolute values which cause instability (all depends how the co-officients get calculated). If it's been stable so far, then I doubt it is a problem, but I though it fair to warn you, just in case! Watch the CPU load too - animating the slider will use quite some juice due to SM's poor graphics handling. And you can't see this on SM's internal meter, you'll need to use and external meter (e.g. Task Manager) to check this.